Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Fisherman]

Last post on Dew (from me). This is his retrospective copper’s hunch concerning the MJK witnesses:

And if Mrs. Maxwell was mistaken, is it not probable that George Hutchison erred also? This, without reflecting in any way on either witness, is my considered view. I believe that the man of the billycock hat and beard was the last person to enter Marie Kelly's room that night and was her killer. Always assuming that Mrs. Cox ever had seen her with a man.

As I said before, I find it interesting how Dew seemingly puts little trust in Cox.

[MrBarnett]

I reacted to how Gareth spoke of "howlers" on Dews behalf, and I think it is an unfair assessment of his work. As such, it can never be excluded that there are errors in any account, and that goes for what Dew had to ay about Hutchinson too - but what he said is in line with what the papers and Abberline expressed, and it therefore becomes of interest since there are no other assessments of Hutchinson in biographies and such.

Circumspection - I´m all for it. Dumping - no.

Yes, Hutch is painted as a plausible witness by the police, and if he was Toppy he doesn’t appear to have been someone who lived an especially chaotic lifestyle. So I have a problem with the idea that he got the day wrong, particularly as Romford Market would have given him a point of reference.

[Batman]

Very detailed

https://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/castofthousands.joseph-fleming.html

[MrBarnett]

As I said before, I find it interesting how Dew seemingly puts little trust in Cox.

But what value is there in saying in one sentence that he believes blotchy killed Kelly and then in the next to throw doubt on whether blotchy even existed? It sounds like he was just sucking his pencil and guessing.

Cox was someone who probably did lead a chaotic lifestyle.

(At the inquest Cox actually stated that blotchy’s chin was clean shaven. Dew gave him a beard.

He also calls St Katherine Creechurch, St Katherine Free Church)

[MrBarnett]

https://www.casebook.org/ripper_medi...h-fleming.html

From 2004. Is that the most up to date research on Fleming?

[MrBarnett]

Yes, you are.

Thanks, Fish.

Presumably he got into that work through his father, possibly working alongside him in his early teens.

How/when on earth did he become a groom, I wonder?

[Batman]

From 2004. Is that the most up to date research on Fleming?

I doubt it would be with the magazines that are out there with so many articles, but I can only grab what I can find for now.

[Abby Normal]

The geoprofile also puts Tabram into the picture. I go with Sugden on her inclusion.

Barnett doesn't fit here. He is living with Kelly around April through to the start of November, nine days before her murder. Too close.

Joseph Fleming meets the criteria much better.

Why is there so little about him out there?

Flemming does fit that scenario very well.
As does hutch.

Of course some say he was the same person.

[Sam Flynn]

Flemming does fit that scenario very well.
As does hutch.

Of course some say he was the same person.

I used to think he could have been, but not any more.

[Batman]

I used to think he could have been, but not any more.

The important question is if they knew each other. That would be the first thing to look at.

[Fisherman]

Yes, Hutch is painted as a plausible witness by the police, and if he was Toppy he doesn’t appear to have been someone who lived an especially chaotic lifestyle. So I have a problem with the idea that he got the day wrong, particularly as Romford Market would have given him a point of reference.

Once again, Gary - his lifestyle produced the archetypical examples of people who mix up the days.

[Fisherman]

But what value is there in saying in one sentence that he believes blotchy killed Kelly and then in the next to throw doubt on whether blotchy even existed? It sounds like he was just sucking his pencil and guessing.

Cox was someone who probably did lead a chaotic lifestyle.

(At the inquest Cox actually stated that blotchy’s chin was clean shaven. Dew gave him a beard.

He also calls St Katherine Creechurch, St Katherine Free Church)

There is a discrepancy, yes - but given how few men they had to choose from, I think that what Dew means is what he says: IF Blotchy ever existed, then he is the best bet as far as Dew is concerned.
Nota bene in this context that if Hutchinsons man ALSO existed, then how on earth could Blotchy be a better bid...?
I´ll explain how it works: because Dew accepts - like the rest of the police as per the Echo article Jon posted - that Astrakhan man was very real and that Hutchinson (who he deemed totally honest) had seen him. But NOT on the murder night!

[Fisherman]

Thanks, Fish.

Presumably he got into that work through his father, possibly working alongside him in his early teens.

How/when on earth did he become a groom, I wonder?

By doing a runner from his home, where there was some sort of conflict, and trying on another life. The way young people do before they join the ranks.

[MrBarnett]

Once again, Gary - his lifestyle produced the archetypical examples of people who mix up the days.

But we know next to nothing about his lifestyle in 1888 other than that he was unemployed for a short period, lived in one of the more respectable East End lodging houses and hoofed it back from Romford on one occasion.

If he went there on the promise of a job or, as a groom, in the hope of some casual work at the livestock market, he’d presumably have had a grasp of the days of the week. He was a young man from a seemingly respectable family who by 1891 was living in respectable lodgings in west London and employed in the trade that his father had followed.

[Abby Normal]

The important question is if they knew each other. That would be the first thing to look at.

Hi batman and sam
I dont think they were the same person either.

But i do beleive they were both staying at the victoria home. As was barnetts brother, so hutch may have known both or at least heard about mary, her murder and or inquest news from them.