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Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Hm. Then perhaps all we can say is that it seems to have been a case of how it is easy enough to mistake the word "he" for "she"...? !
    I was thinking exactly the same.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Actually, ignore my earlier post, I may have been at the eggnog! It's pretty even;

    Daily News
    I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door

    Daily Telegraph
    I said "Good night, Mary," and she turned round and banged the door.

    ELA
    The deceased said "Good night, I am going to have a song," and then she banged the door.

    IPN
    followed them up into the court, and said, "Good nigh, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door

    MA
    I followed them up into the court, and said, "Good night, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door.

    PIP
    I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door.*

    St James Gazette
    The man slammed the door in the witness's face and the deceased wished her "Good night," and said she was going to have a song.

    Star
    He went with the deceased into her room, and I said "Good night, Mary." Thereupon the man turned round and banged the door, the deceased having answered me, in a drunken voice, "Good night, I'm going to have a song."

    Times
    The door was shut and witness heard the deceased singing
    Hm. Then perhaps all we can say is that it seems to have been a case of how it is easy enough to mistake the word "he" for "she"...? The rational thing to expect is that Cox was not forgetting who banged the door as she went along. The suggestion that she made it all up and made a mistake on account of that must be secondary, IŽd say.

    Thanks for clarifying, and enjoy your well deserved eggnog, Joshua!

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  • DJA
    replied
    https://www.artstation.com/artwork/B0WV9

    The other option

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Okay - the ones I checked had a wording that did not give away who closed the door, like "the door was then closed". Thanks for filling it in!
    Actually, ignore my earlier post, I may have been at the eggnog! It's pretty even;

    Daily News
    I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door

    Daily Telegraph
    I said "Good night, Mary," and she turned round and banged the door.

    ELA
    The deceased said "Good night, I am going to have a song," and then she banged the door.

    IPN
    followed them up into the court, and said, "Good nigh, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door

    MA
    I followed them up into the court, and said, "Good night, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door.

    PIP
    I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door.*

    St James Gazette
    The man slammed the door in the witness's face and the deceased wished her "Good night," and said she was going to have a song.

    Star
    He went with the deceased into her room, and I said "Good night, Mary." Thereupon the man turned round and banged the door, the deceased having answered me, in a drunken voice, "Good night, I'm going to have a song."

    Times
    The door was shut and witness heard the deceased singing

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Most other papers report that the man banged the door the first time, although a couple say only that the door was closed. So I suspect the Daily News had it wrong on this point.
    Okay - the ones I checked had a wording that did not give away who closed the door, like "the door was then closed". Thanks for filling it in!

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    Hi All,

    Would it not be a bit of a coincidence if, on this particular night, Kelly's door jammed shut in such a way that meant anyone inside would have had no choice but to exit through the window? So if Kelly had gone back alone, without Blotchy, and had banged the door shut, she'd have been in this position when she woke in the morning and tried to go out?

    Wasn't it thought at one time that you could always open the door from the inside, but it would be locked to anyone on the outside unless they had a key? When the key went missing, I had assumed Kelly and Barnett would have left the door on the latch when going out, so they could get back in or, if it shut behind them and locked them out, Barnett could lean in through the window and unlock it from the inside.

    If the killer did escape through the window, was it perhaps on purpose, after putting a chair against the door to prevent anyone from entering too easily? He probably wouldn't know if anyone had a key, or that the door would have locked automatically if he had only gone out that way and shut it firmly behind him. After all, Kelly didn't have a key when taking Blotchy back, and they didn't get in through the window, so he'd have assumed the door was always unlocked.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Hi Caz
    I agree, seems like mary and blotchy had no problem getting in, so the door was left unlocked. The door may have been jammed shut after they went in, but I doubt it. The door just happens to jam on the night shes murdered, forcing the killer to go out the window? what are the chances?

    and anyway-I doubt he would go through a broken window with shards to get cut on and possible making a racket. which means he would have to open the window get out-and I doubt he would then, once out, worry about shutting the window. and if you could get out through the door-why chance being seen leaving, climbing out the window?


    re the chair against the door-I doubt it. he could probably see that the door locked, or they locked it themselves behind them. plus I think it would be documented by the police if a door was blocked by a chair.


    I think most likely, there was a way to lock the door as you left, even if you didn't have a key.

    Leave a comment:


  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Do you think the boy's shirt left by Maria Harvey may have belonged to the young child who allegedly lived with Kelly?

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  • Darryl Kenyon
    replied
    Are we sure there was nothing worth stealing? Maria Harvey - She left an overcoat, two dirty cotton shirts, a boy's shirt, a girl's white petticoat and a black crepe bonnet in the room.
    Doesn't sound like much? But to a destitute Victorian these items down at a pawn shop could be the difference between a night on the streets and the couple of pennies needed for a night in a lodging house.
    Also there was a tin bath under Mary's bed. She might have wanted to make sure that didn't get taken because i feel Mary supplemented what little income she could earn off the streets by washing items of clothing [Two dirty cotton shirts].

    Leave a comment:


  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Look at this, from the DT of the 13:th of November:

    she turned round and banged the door.

    The man closed the door.

    One has to wonder!
    Most other papers report that the man banged the door the first time, although a couple say only that the door was closed. So I suspect the Daily News had it wrong on this point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    Hi All,

    Would it not be a bit of a coincidence if, on this particular night, Kelly's door jammed shut in such a way that meant anyone inside would have had no choice but to exit through the window? So if Kelly had gone back alone, without Blotchy, and had banged the door shut, she'd have been in this position when she woke in the morning and tried to go out?

    Wasn't it thought at one time that you could always open the door from the inside, but it would be locked to anyone on the outside unless they had a key? When the key went missing, I had assumed Kelly and Barnett would have left the door on the latch when going out, so they could get back in or, if it shut behind them and locked them out, Barnett could lean in through the window and unlock it from the inside.

    If the killer did escape through the window, was it perhaps on purpose, after putting a chair against the door to prevent anyone from entering too easily? He probably wouldn't know if anyone had a key, or that the door would have locked automatically if he had only gone out that way and shut it firmly behind him. After all, Kelly didn't have a key when taking Blotchy back, and they didn't get in through the window, so he'd have assumed the door was always unlocked.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    I think that Id agree with the reaching in to release, or engage, the latch was possible for Barnett Caz. And I also think that when Barnett was there they left the latch off so the door would lock behind them when they left. Mary obviously didn't do that on her last night though.

    I believe leaving the door locked behind you would be quite simple, just disengage the latch first, and creep out. Simon has suggested that the door wasn't locked....I wonder whether you believe Simon that the door was locked when the crime had originally been discovered, and the unlocked state at around 1:30, was a result of the door being opened and the room being entered before 1:30?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    ... After all, Kelly didn't have a key when taking Blotchy back, and they didn't get in through the window, so he'd have assumed the door was always unlocked.
    This has been my point from the start, the door was left unlocked/open when the tenant was out, they had nothing worth stealing. Only locked, for personal protection, when the tenant was home.
    In this case a key would rarely be used, so if it went missing it was no inconvenience.

    Leave a comment:


  • caz
    replied
    Hi All,

    Would it not be a bit of a coincidence if, on this particular night, Kelly's door jammed shut in such a way that meant anyone inside would have had no choice but to exit through the window? So if Kelly had gone back alone, without Blotchy, and had banged the door shut, she'd have been in this position when she woke in the morning and tried to go out?

    Wasn't it thought at one time that you could always open the door from the inside, but it would be locked to anyone on the outside unless they had a key? When the key went missing, I had assumed Kelly and Barnett would have left the door on the latch when going out, so they could get back in or, if it shut behind them and locked them out, Barnett could lean in through the window and unlock it from the inside.

    If the killer did escape through the window, was it perhaps on purpose, after putting a chair against the door to prevent anyone from entering too easily? He probably wouldn't know if anyone had a key, or that the door would have locked automatically if he had only gone out that way and shut it firmly behind him. After all, Kelly didn't have a key when taking Blotchy back, and they didn't get in through the window, so he'd have assumed the door was always unlocked.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Last edited by caz; 12-20-2018, 01:53 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    There was a light in the window, but I saw nothing, as the blinds were down.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    cox said mary banged the door.
    Look at this, from the DT of the 13:th of November:

    Mary Ann Cox stated: I live at No. 5 Room, Miller's-court. It is the last house on the left-hand side of the court. I am a widow, and get my living on the streets. I have known the deceased for eight or nine months as the occupant of No. 13 Room. She was called Mary Jane. I last saw her alive on Thursday night, at a quarter to twelve, very much intoxicated.
    [Coroner] Where was this ? - In Dorset-street. She went up the court, a few steps in front of me.
    [Coroner] Was anybody with her ? - A short, stout man, shabbily dressed. He had on a longish coat, very shabby, and carried a pot of ale in his hand.
    [Coroner] What was the colour of the coat ? - A dark coat.
    [Coroner] What hat had he ? - A round hard billycock.
    [Coroner] Long or short hair ? - I did not notice. He had a blotchy face, and full carrotty moustache.
    [Coroner] The chin was shaven ? - Yes. A lamp faced the door.
    [Coroner] Did you see them go into her room ? - Yes; I said "Good night, Mary," and she turned round and banged the door.
    [Coroner] Had he anything in his hands but the can ? - No.
    [Coroner] Did she say anything ? - She said "Good night, I am going to have a song." As I went in she sang "A violet I plucked from my mother's grave when a boy." I remained a quarter of an hour in my room and went out. Deceased was still singing at one o'clock when I returned. I remained in the room for a minute to warm my hands as it was raining, and went out again. She was singing still, and I returned to my room at three o'clock. The light was then out and there was no noise.
    [Coroner] Did you go to sleep ? - No; I was upset. I did not undress at all. I did not sleep at all. I must have heard what went on in the court. I heard no noise or cry of "Murder," but men went out to work in the market.
    [Coroner] How many men live in the court who work in Spitalfields Market ? - One. At a quarter- past six I heard a man go down the court. That was too late for the market.
    [Coroner] From what house did he go ? - I don't know.
    [Coroner] Did you hear the door bang after him ? - No.
    [Coroner] Then he must have walked up the court and back again? - Yes.
    [Coroner] It might have been a policeman ? - It might have been.
    [Coroner] What would you take the stout man's age to be ? - Six-and-thirty.
    [Coroner] Did you notice the colour of his trousers ? - All his clothes were dark.
    [Coroner] Did his boots sound as if the heels were heavy ? - There was no sound as he went up the court.
    [Coroner] Then you think that his boots were down at heels ? - He made no noise.
    [Coroner] What clothes had Mary Jane on ? - She had no hat; a red pelerine and a shabby skirt.
    [Coroner] You say she was drunk ? - I did not notice she was drunk until she said good night. The man closed the door. By the Jury: There was a light in the window, but I saw nothing, as the blinds were down. I should know the man again, if I saw him.
    By the Coroner: I feel certain if there had been the cry of "Murder" in the place I should have heard it; there was not the least noise. I have often seen the woman the worse for drink.


    One has to wonder!

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  • Simon Wood
    replied
    It was certainly made to look that way.

    Leave a comment:

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