Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Sam Flynn]

One other small item of interest, at least for Gareth, reads:
"The clothes of the woman were lying by the side of the bed, as though they had been taken off and laid down in the ordinary manner."

I know we discussed the placement of her clothes somewhere, I just can't remember where, sorry.

It might have been in connection with the origin of the "neatly folded" meme/myth, Jon.

[Wickerman]

One other small item of interest, at least for Gareth, reads:
"The clothes of the woman were lying by the side of the bed, as though they had been taken off and laid down in the ordinary manner."

I know we discussed the placement of her clothes somewhere, I just can't remember where, sorry.

[Wickerman]

The Sunday Times, 11 Nov. 1888 provided a cursory plan view of the room.
A note 1 to this sketch reads:
Small window - broken, but covered with an old coat. It was through this window that the body was first seen.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

In the press, Bowyer only seems to refer to pulling aside a [muslin] curtain or a blind, and says nothing about poking a great big [pilot] coat out of the way.

Yes, in Abberline's interview with Bowyer he writes that he "threw the blinds back and looked through the window." In the official inquest testimony transcript Bowyer says "...there was a curtain over the window I pulled the curtain aside and looked in..." Apparently no coat.

The Star (12 November, 1888) says that the coat was considered to be an important clue when it was found in the room but, as it turned out to have belonged to Maria Harvey, led nowhere.

I researched all this in some detail back in 2000/1 for my article Screams of Murder for Ripper Notes, but I don't think it got into the finished article. I did conclude at the time that Dew was the one who gave us the myth of the coat over the window and I think is another clue that he wasn't actually there on the 9th.

Wolf.

[DJA]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bia9bxkzA8

[Sam Flynn]

Sea pilot's coat,by memory?

Dew just says that it was an "old coat". I don't know where the "[pilot] coat in the window" story originated, but I see that various press reports of 10th November say this: "It is stated that a man's pilot coat has been found in the murdered woman's room, but whether it belonged to one of her paramours or to the murderer has not."

Did someone - Dew? - put two and two together to make five? Was the "coat in the window" a myth? In the press, Bowyer only seems to refer to pulling aside a [muslin] curtain or a blind, and says nothing about poking a great big [pilot] coat out of the way.

Interesting!

[DJA]

Of course Dew states that the/a coat was used as a curtain to block the window. Another of Dew's inconsistencies?

Wolf.

Sea pilot's coat,by memory?

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

It looks like the coat was casually draped on the chair

Of course Dew states that the/a coat was used as a curtain to block the window. Another of Dew's inconsistencies?

Wolf.

[Sam Flynn]

That's the drawing, Jon.

[Wickerman]

I remember asking this a few years ago, as I couldn't find any contemporary source that said her clothes were "neatly folded", and that remains the case. I think the idea is a more recent invention that's somehow slipped into accepted use.

If you look at the sketch of Kelly's room which appeared in Reynolds News, which I believe was drawn by someone who was there, we see a pair of shoes kicked off in front of a chair, with what appears to be a coat loosely hanging off the back of it.

I remember talking about that quote with Debs years ago, I just can't recall if we identified the source.

This must be the pic you mention...

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam the coat may be the coat left there by Maria Harvey

It looks like the coat was casually draped on the chair, and there's a pair of equally discarded-looking shoes on the floor in front of it. I'd bet a pound to a penny that it was Mary Kelly who slung the coat on the back of that chair, then sat on it to take off her shoes.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Who was it that wrote her clothes were folded (on a chair?), and her shoes placed by the fire?

I can't remember the source, but not the actions of someone "very drunk".

Mary Ann Cox - She was called Mary Jane. I last saw her alive on Thursday night, at a quarter to twelve, very much intoxicated

[Observer]

I am saying around midnight.

I would not rule out later as you have.

I'm not ruling anything out or in. How can you say that she took her meal around midnight, and maintain that A Man's parcel contained fish and chips? I don't know about you but if someone said to me that they had had a meal around midnight I would assume they meant within 20/30 minutes either side of midnight. How far does "around midnight " stretch too? Two hours, three hours, six hours?

[Darryl Kenyon]

If you look at the sketch of Kelly's room which appeared in Reynolds News, which I believe was drawn by someone who was there, we see a pair of shoes kicked off in front of a chair, with what appears to be a coat loosely hanging off the back of it.

Hi Sam the coat may be the coat left there by Maria Harvey

[Batman]

If she took her meal around midnight, what was A Man doing standing talking to her at 2 in the morning with a fish supper in his hands? In short the fish supper in question could not have been the one that Kelly partook of at "around midnight"

I am saying around midnight.

I would not rule out later as you have.