Rating The Suspects.

[GBinOz]

George Chapman was a serial killer too, admittedly a poisoner rather than one who strangled and killed with a knife. He was only convicted of one of the murders, but I don't think that matters for our purposes, because there's little question that he committed three murders.

Hi Lewis C,

I stand corrected. Chapman was a serial killer, and I do not discount him on the fact that he may have used different a different technique for wives compared to strangers - an obvious imperative.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Is there any reason to believe that the Grant referred to in the clippings book is the same Grant?

I do think Grainger is a better suspect than most, but I have two problems with him. One is that I believe I remember reading that his whereabouts at the time of the murders are unknown, but he was known to have been in Ireland shortly before the murders began and shortly after they ended. So he could have come to Whitechapel from Ireland, committed the murders, and then gone back to Ireland, but to me, that doesn't seem very likely.

My other issue with him is that his attack on a prostitute was much less skillful than what JtR did, and I wonder if he really would have lost that ability in the few years that passed between the murders and his attack.

Hi Lewis C,

No proof that it was the same person other than someone named Grant (admittedly a common name) was later suspected.

Removing one's self from the scene of a crime (as did Bury) does not seem to me to be a disqualifying strategy.

The difference in technique is also used to question the McKenzie murder as being by the ripper. The ripper was successful in taking his victims by surprise, but there could be some latitude if the circumstances were different, such as being set upon by three ruffians at the same time. Not dis-similar to Don Bradman being dismissed for a duck in his last game to deprive him of a 100 average. The anticipation exceeds the participation.

I fully appreciate your reservations. There seems to be far less research into persons such as Grainger, Deeming and Thompson than the more traditional suspects such as Kosminski, Chapman and Druitt.

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

We don't know whether or not Cohen was a police suspect. His suspect status is based primarily on the possibility that he may have been Anderson's suspect. Also, I don't see why having a known connection to the case matters, unless that connection in some way raises suspicions about him.

hi lewis
the cohen connection is too convoluted for me and as far as we know he wasnt andersons suspect, koz was.

re connection..well its known connection along with other yellow flags. for example burys connection is he was a police suspect, but we also know he was in the immediate area and a known murderer.

imho if you cant even place a candidate in the city and or they have zero connection to the case, a suspect you dont have. its just me, i just place a high emphasis on location/ proximity/ connection.

of course just having a connection dosnt make you suspicious. for example, innocuous witness like pc smith, or marshall or cox or diemshitz dosnt make you a suspect.

now the reverse of that, if mere connection to the case with no other yellow flags dosnt make you a suspect, then just having a violent/insane past but with no connection with the case dosnt make you a suspect either.

its like a parlor room game...hey lets find some random violent crazy guy with no connection to the case, to a victim, to the location and fit em on up. it just kind of silly to me. but again thats just me.

[Lewis C]

hi fiver
thanks. checked out the thread.

i think these types of candidates are artificially elevated on this list just because of prior violence/ insanity. ill just leave it with what i wrote earlier:

my problem with candidates like hyams, the other lechmere, smith, cohen, stephen, (not even gonna mention gull, sickert or maybrick in this list as they are just ridiculous) is they have absolute zero connection to the case not even a tenuous one, werent suspected by the police at the time and cant be placed anywhere near any the victims or locations. they are concoctions and extensions of the crazy/violent guy/ jew theory picked out of the bag by later "theorists". seriously, you could literally find anyone out of thousands in london at the time and fit them up under this criteria as a "suspect".

Hi Abby,

We don't know whether or not Cohen was a police suspect. His suspect status is based primarily on the possibility that he may have been Anderson's suspect. Also, I don't see why having a known connection to the case matters, unless that connection in some way raises suspicions about him.

[Lewis C]

Hi RD,

While I don't have a suspect, I find Deeming to be an interesting person of interest. As well as his other qualifications he is the only convicted serial killer of whom I am aware. His father spent time in an asylum and he was known to have an excessive regard for his mother culminating in his belief that she was still guiding him after her death. He also had fanatical religious beliefs and was known in his youth as "Mad Fred". It is difficult to imagine how someone could visit upon MJK the horrific injuries that she suffered, but killing two wives and four children may very well have put him in consideration for such an atrocity. Yet somehow he rates below Kelly, who I observe as having escaped from an asylum and turning up decades later, with no detail between. Curious.

Cheers, George

George Chapman was a serial killer too, admittedly a poisoner rather than one who strangled and killed with a knife. He was only convicted of one of the murders, but I don't think that matters for our purposes, because there's little question that he committed three murders.

[Lewis C]

Hi Herlock,

I have just been reading this thread:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/persons-of-interest-or-actual-suspects/william-grant-grainger/20245-a-case-for-william-grant-grainger

In Post #3 Nemo, with regard to Grainger states:

He was a persistent drunk and at least once entered an asylum for treatment of what appears to be delirium tremens, reported as suffering from hallucinations and a delusional mental state

and

Patricia Cornwell owns a clippings book which appears to be a collection of articles and notes from some type of investigator of the Ripper crimes in 1888
In this book there is a note from around the time of the Annie Chapman murder which asks "Which regiment does Grant belong to?"

Might these comments warrant an upgrade to categories D and E?

I have also recently re-watched Robyn Napper's investigation into Deeming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQxYiUUDZqk&t=10s&ab_channel=DarkHistory

Just before the 12 minute mark he discovers that Deeming's death mask was used as "the face of Jack the Ripper" in the Scotland Yard Crime Museum, possibly indicating an interest in him at the time. Might this warrant an upgrade in category E?

For your consideration.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Is there any reason to believe that the Grant referred to in the clippings book is the same Grant?

I do think Grainger is a better suspect than most, but I have two problems with him. One is that I believe I remember reading that his whereabouts at the time of the murders are unknown, but he was known to have been in Ireland shortly before the murders began and shortly after they ended. So he could have come to Whitechapel from Ireland, committed the murders, and then gone back to Ireland, but to me, that doesn't seem very likely.

My other issue with him is that his attack on a prostitute was much less skillful than what JtR did, and I wonder if he really would have lost that ability in the few years that passed between the murders and his attack.

[Abby Normal]

Odds are George Capel Scudamore Lechmere was just an attempted murderer, but his attempted murder by slitting the throat, as opposed to stabbing, is uncommon, so I think GCS Lechmere is a better suspect than most.

I created a thread on George Capel Scudamore Lechmere, using newspaper accounts and old Bailey records. Geneaology records show barber/hairdresser GCS Lechmere was in and out of the workhouse. At the time of the murders he was living in Lambeth, so not super close. He tried to murder his wife in 1890 and did 18 months hard labor at Wormwood Scrubbs Prison. Only half of his kids made it to adulthood. The sons appear to have not married. The daughters emigrated to Australia.

hi fiver
thanks. checked out the thread.

i think these types of candidates are artificially elevated on this list just because of prior violence/ insanity. ill just leave it with what i wrote earlier:

my problem with candidates like hyams, the other lechmere, smith, cohen, stephen, (not even gonna mention gull, sickert or maybrick in this list as they are just ridiculous) is they have absolute zero connection to the case not even a tenuous one, werent suspected by the police at the time and cant be placed anywhere near any the victims or locations. they are concoctions and extensions of the crazy/violent guy/ jew theory picked out of the bag by later "theorists". seriously, you could literally find anyone out of thousands in london at the time and fit them up under this criteria as a "suspect".

[Fiver]

thanks fiver. herlock can we get that name updated on the list?

fiver, if you really think he makes a good suspect, you should really delve into him more and see what you come up with! like can he be placed in wc during the time?, did the two lechs know each other etc.

Odds are George Capel Scudamore Lechmere was just an attempted murderer, but his attempted murder by slitting the throat, as opposed to stabbing, is uncommon, so I think GCS Lechmere is a better suspect than most.

I created a thread on George Capel Scudamore Lechmere, using newspaper accounts and old Bailey records. Geneaology records show barber/hairdresser GCS Lechmere was in and out of the workhouse. At the time of the murders he was living in Lambeth, so not super close. He tried to murder his wife in 1890 and did 18 months hard labor at Wormwood Scrubbs Prison. Only half of his kids made it to adulthood. The sons appear to have not married. The daughters emigrated to Australia.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I suggest dropping Sutton a pint on Age/physical health. Sutton was in his early 50s and his Royal College of Physicians minibio says that he was short and slightly deaf. Short people are at a disadvantage when subduing victims adn its harder for a slightly deaf person to hear approaching footsteps in time to escape undetected.

I take your point Fiver but if I did that I’d also have to drop points for suspects like Tumblety and Maybrick who were both 50+. D’Onston was 47 so some might say ‘what difference would 3 or 4 years make?’ The deafness is also a very fair point to make but we don’t really know how deaf he was. It might have hampered him but it’s impossible to gauge how much? It’s a close call but I think I’ll leave it at that for the time being though.


General point to all, I’ll always listen to comments and if everyone, or a large majority, tells me I’m mistaken then I’m always willing to make changes to any suspect. Unless someone suggests that Arthur Conan Doyle should go on the list of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

thanks fiver. herlock can we get that name updated on the list?

fiver, if you really think he makes a good suspect, you should really delve into him more and see what you come up with! like can he be placed in wc during the time?, did the two lechs know each other etc.

Abby, I would have sworn that I’d already done it. One year added to my age and I’m all over the place.


Amendment #11

--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard

02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey


Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = some issues creating doubt

. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate


(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel/possible doubt

. . . 0 = serious doubt


(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence


(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known


(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs)

. . . 0 = none known


(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none


(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = no


(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

[Abby Normal]

George Capel Scudamore Lechmere was Charles Allen Lechmere's second cousin.

thanks fiver. herlock can we get that name updated on the list?

fiver, if you really think he makes a good suspect, you should really delve into him more and see what you come up with! like can he be placed in wc during the time?, did the two lechs know each other etc.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock -
The spacing issue in your Suspects Table is because 1) the default font is variable width and 2) the editor appears to save multiple spaces as a single space. Adding a header introduces a problem because the letters aren't the same width as the numbers below, and the extra spaces get squeezed out. To get around these issues in the example below, I've used the forum editor to change the font to "Courier New" which is fixed-width. I only changed the left side to Courier because it can be hard to read. The right side with names remains in the default font. Also, I changed the entire left side to bold, again because Courier can be hard to read. Regarding the issues of copy/paste through the iPad (and probably most other systems), that's a function of how "control codes" are transferred from one device to another. Generally speaking, control codes are invisible in the displayed text. Their functions can include turning on/off bold, italic, and linefeed/carriage returns. Often they will not transfer to a different device's editor during cut/copy/paste.

I have a possible solution. When you wish to do a table update, open the forum message with the latest published version. Select and copy the table and legend (but no other text). Now jump to wherever you wish to add a message and "Post Reply". Immediately paste into the editor window. That way the copy/paste stays within the web browser rather than transferring to Pages and getting corrupted. Of course any other text you wish to add above or below the inserted table can come from any source including iPad Pages. I've tested this myself and it seems to copy correctly. You'll have to try it with your set-up to see if it works for you.

Here's my latest effort. I welcome your opinion and thoughts.


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---
13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James
11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry
09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne
09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey
09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam
09 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"
08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere
08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)
07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis
07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David
07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis
06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John
05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth
05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George
04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert
04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James
03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard
02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey

Legend:

(A) Age/physical health
. . . 2 = no issue
. . . 1 = some issues creating doubt
. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites
. . . 2 = no issues
. . . 1 = reasonable travel/possible doubt
. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence
. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife
. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife
. . . 2 = violence with a knife
. . . 1 = violence without a knife
. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues
. . . 2 = serious/violent
. . . 1 = other
. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest
. . . 2 = at the time
. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs)
. . . 0 = none known

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes
. . . 2 = yes
. . . 1 = link to prostitutes
. . . 0 = none

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)
. . . 1 = yes
. . . 0 = no

(H) Alcohol/drug issue
. . . 1 = yes
. . . 0 = none known

One final request/suggestion.

Is there a way that we could have the key to the legends above the list and across the page rather than vertical? The way it is creates a long post which requires someone reading it to keep moving up and down to check what C means and what G means etc. Basically could we have it something like..


(A) Age/Physical Health…2=no issue/1=some issues creating doubt/0=serious issue, could potentially eliminate.
(B) Location/Access to murder sites………and so on?

Thanks again.

[Fiver]

Ammendments

Henry Gawen Sutton - suggested by Dave (DJA)

.

I suggest dropping Sutton a pint on Age/physical health. Sutton was in his early 50s and his Royal College of Physicians minibio says that he was short and slightly deaf. Short people are at a disadvantage when subduing victims adn its harder for a slightly deaf person to hear approaching footsteps in time to escape undetected.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

Good work. Of course, Grainger is off the scale against most of those on the list.
Re: the violence scoring - Grainger inserted his knife into a prostitute`s vagina on a Spitalfields street. This is actually more significant than if he`d killed his wife back in Ireland.
Should really be more than 2 points.

Hi Jon,

Yes I think that I might have to do a bit of reading up on Grainger. I certainly agree with what you say about that horrific knife attack. There’s no way of quantifying it but it does appear to merit at least an extra 0.5 but I don’t want to go down that road.

[Fiver]

ah yes, the infamous other lechmere. i thought that had something to do with it. it would be interesting to know if they were related.

George Capel Scudamore Lechmere was Charles Allen Lechmere's second cousin.