Edward spooner

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So we have the following flower colour descriptions:

PC Smith: red

D-I Reid: red

The Workers Friend: red

Edward Spooner: red and white

Matthew Packer: red and white

LEN, Oct 1:

At the mortuary our reporter saw three men who had their suspicions raised on Saturday night by the conduct of a man and a woman in Settles-street, Commercial-road:
...
John Gardner, labourer, 11, Chapman-street, corroborated all that Best said respecting the conduct of the man and the woman at the Bricklayers' Arms, adding "before I got into the mortuary to-day (Sunday) I told you the woman had a flower in her jacket, and that she had a short jacket. Well, I have been to the mortuary, and there she was with the dahlias on the right side of her jacket.
I COULD SWEAR She is the woman I saw at the Bricklayers' Arms, and she has the same smile on her face now that she had then."

So we have three witnesses stating that the flower was red (only), and the police witnesses stating that the flower was a rose, compared to the earliest witness (Gardner), who believed it to be a dahlia. We also have Spooner describing the flower as red and white.

The theory: Spooner describes the flower pinned to Stride's jacket as being red and white, because a flower of those colours is what he was expecting to see, due to having seen Stride wearing a red and white flower, earlier in the evening.

Support for this theory would require Spooner stating, or have been witnessed, having been at the same place as Stride, earlier in the evening. Failing that; in the vicinity of a location at which Stride was seen by another witness or witnesses.
It also requires more evidence that the original flower had been replaced with another. A witness who sees Stride between the time she is seen at the pub by the three labourers, and when found dead, and who is explicit about not seeing a flower on the victim's jacket, would fit the bill.

Re 1st requirement:

J. Best, 82, Lower Chapman-street, said: I was in the Bricklayer's Arms, Settles-street, about two hundred yards from the scene of the murder on Saturday night, shortly before eleven, and saw a man and woman in the doorway. They had been served in the public house, and went out when me and my friends came in. It was raining very fast, and they did not appear willing to go out. He was hugging her and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on with the woman, who was poorly dressed.
...
I have been to the mortuary, and am almost certain the woman there is the one we saw at the Bricklayers' Arms.

The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. ... He had a thick black moustache and no beard. He wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar. I don't know the colour of his tie. ... The man was no foreigner; he was an Englishman right enough.

The address of the Bricklayer's Arms was 34 Settles Street. Located on the eastern side of Settles Street at the southern corner of the junction with Fordham Street. A church stood nearby. At its southern end, Settles Street joins Commercial Road opposite Christian Street. Source

Spooner: On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the [Beehive Tavern] at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street.

Re 2nd requirement. MA, Oct 6:

William Marshall, 64, Berner-street, deposed - I am a labourer in an indigo warehouse. I have seen the body of the deceased at the mortuary. I saw deceased on Saturday evening in Berner-street, about three doors off from where I am living. She was on the pavement opposite No. 58. She was between Boyd-street and Fairclough-street. It was then about a quarter to twelve o’clock at night. She was standing on the pavement talking with a man.

How did you know this was the same woman? - I recognised the deceased was the same woman by her face and her dress. She was not wearing a flower in her breast. She and the man were talking quietly. There was no lamp near. The nearest lamp was some yards off. I did not see the face of the man distinctly.

Did you notice how he was dressed? - Yes, he had a black small coat and dark trousers.

How old was he, do you think - young, or old, or middle-aged? - He seemed to me to be a middle-aged man. He was not wearing a hat; he was wearing a round cap with a small peak to it, something like what a sailor would wear.

What height was he? - He was about 5ft. 6in.

Was he thin or stout? - Rather stoutish.

Did he look well dressed? - Yes, sir, he looked decently dressed.

What class of man did he look? - He looked as if he worked at some respectable business.

Everybody works at a respectable business. - (Laughter.) - He did not look like a dock labourer nor a sailor. He had more the appearance of a clerk than anything I can suggest. I do not think he had any whiskers. He was not wearing gloves. He had no stick or umbrella in his hand. He had a cutaway coat.

Are you sure it was not me? - (Laughter.) - No, sir. - (Laughter.) I am sure deceased is the woman. I did not take much notice as to whether she had anything in her hand. I was standing at my door.

What attracted your attention to them? - I was first attracted by their standing there for some time, and he was kissing and cuddling her.

Did you overhear anything they said? - I heard the man say to the deceased, "You would say anything but your prayers."

So the apparent sequence is:

flower at pub > no flower on street > flower in yard

In terms of the type of flower:

Dahlia at pub > nothing on street > Rose in yard

It's notable that Bricklayer's Arms Man seems similar in appearance, behaviour and ethnicity, to Lower Berner Street Man, except for a crucial difference - the headwear; a black billycock hat, rather tall goes to a round cap with a small peak to it.

It would also seem that I like coining monikers

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The following quotes are in chronological order.

Wess: On Saturday last I was in the printing-office during the day and in the club during the evening. From nine to half-past ten at night I was away seeing an English friend home, but I was in the club again till a quarter-past midnight.

Best: I was in the Bricklayer's Arms, Settles-street, about two hundred yards from the scene of the murder on Saturday night, shortly before eleven, and saw a man and woman in the doorway. They had been served in the public house, and went out when me and my friends came in.
...
The man was no foreigner; he was an Englishman right enough.

Marshall: I saw the body of the deceased on Sunday. I saw her on the Saturday evening. She was in our street about three doors from where I am living. It was then about 11.45. She was standing talking to a man on the pavement.
...
When they left they went in the middle if the road in the direction of Ellen street. They would not have passed No 40 (the club) on their way.

Baxter: How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock?
Wess: Because of the time when I reached my lodgings. Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there, and on returning to the yard I observed that the double door at the entrance was open.
Baxter: Was there much noise in the club?
Wess: Not exactly much noise; but I could hear the singing when I was in the yard.
Baxter: Did you look towards the yard gates?
Wess: Not so much to the gates as to the ground, but nothing unusual attracted my attention.

Smith: I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.
...
Baxter: When you were in Berner-street the previous time did you see any one?
Smith: Yes, a man and a woman.
Baxter: Was the latter anything like the deceased?
Smith: Yes, I saw her face. I have seen the deceased in the mortuary, and I feel certain it is the same person.
Baxter: Was she on the pavement?
Smith: Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

I wonder if Woolf's English friend had an interesting night out?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Having given the coroner his address and employment details, Spooner immediately states where and when he was, before being alerted to the murder...

[DN] On Sunday morning between 12.30 and 1 o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Tavern, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street along with a young woman.

It is now Tuesday afternoon (Oct 2), so Spooner has had more than 60 hours to sort out in his own mind, where and when and who he was with, that night. He seems to get off to a clear and confident start.
He then states how he and his companion came to be at the stated location...

[MA] We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

So it seems clear that at this point, Spooner has been out of the pub for half an hour, after leaving at closing time, and that half hour period was 12:30-1:00.
Thus, the closing time must have been 12:30.
However, another reporter captured Spooner actually stating the closing time...

[DT] On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public-house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public-house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named.

So having just placed the half hour period at between 12:30 and 1am, Spooner immediately contradicts himself, by stating that the Gloucester Arms had closed at midnight.
It seems odd to me that Baxter did not seem to ask Spooner for clarification.
A little later, Spooner is answering a question regarding the possibility of anyone having left the yard while he was there, but prior to the arrival of police. He then goes off on a tangent...

[Times] The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses. I stood at the top of the street for about five minutes, and then 25 minutes outside the publichouse. I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard.

So Spooner makes it clear that he was only outside the pub for half an hour, before being alerted to the situation, and also implies that the pub had closed at midnight - as he had previously stated.
Yet he is now claiming to have reached the yard half an hour earlier than first suggested.

So the situation seems to be; Spooner is clear on the closing time. He is also clear that another half hour elapses before he goes to the yard.
How then, could Spooner have managed to initially state the he was outside in the period 12:30-1:00?
As I said, he has had 2½ days to think about this.
Perhaps Spooner got confused when he read this in the morning paper, before heading off to the inquest...

Diemschitz: On Saturday I left home about half-past 11 in the morning and returned home exactly at 1 a.m. Sunday morning.

Whatever the case, there is an unaccounted for half hour or so, in Spooner's story - 12:00-12:30, or, 12:30-1:00.
What was Spooner doing in that half hour, that he may not want the coroner to know about?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

D-I Reid: When it was found a murder had been committed a thorough search was made of the yard, houses, and buildings, but no trace could be found of any person likely to have committed the deed. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched, and their clothes and hands examined. There were 28 of them. Each person was dealt with separately. They properly accounted for themselves, and were then allowed to leave.

Were they allowed to leave one-by-one, or only after all 28 had been interrogated? Perhaps Mrs. Diemschitz gave us a clue:

When the police came we were told that we must not quit the premises, and everybody was at once searched. Nothing was found to occasion suspicion, and the members were eventually allowed to go. At four o'clock the body was removed to the mortuary …

I get the impression that all of the 28 were interrogated before anyone could leave.

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.
Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes. And had been searched? - Yes. And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.

So of the 28, Lamb chose Spooner to help him close the gates, and not someone from the club. So two questions:

one: Was Edward Spooner allowed to leave earlier than everyone else?

two: Did he leave alone, or with his lady friend?

[Darryl Kenyon]

one: Was Edward Spooner allowed to leave earlier than everyone else?

two: Did he leave alone, or with his lady friend?[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]

If Spooner did leave before anyone else it is possible that if his lady friend did accompany him to the yard he had an alibi.
I think it is likely that the police in attendance initially suspected a member of the club. He wasn't a member of the club plus probable alibi so was allowed to leave earlier, if indeed he did.
Regards Darryl

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Spooner did leave before anyone else it is possible that if his lady friend did accompany him to the yard he had an alibi.
I think it is likely that the police in attendance initially suspected a member of the club. He wasn't a member of the club plus probable alibi so was allowed to leave earlier, if indeed he did.
Regards Darryl

The yard is the crime scene. If his lady friend did accompany him to the yard, then by definition she cannot be his alibi.
Another way of looking at it is, if she is regarded as his alibi, then who is hers? They cannot both go to the yard and also be each others alibi.

As Spooner seems to have left significantly earlier than everyone else on Reid's list of 28, we are obliged to ask; was Spooner excused?
If no, then why does it seem otherwise? If yes, then what privilege did Spooner enjoy, that none of the other interrogated people seem to have?

[Darryl Kenyon]

The yard is the crime scene. If his lady friend did accompany him to the yard, then by definition she cannot be his alibi.
Another way of looking at it is, if she is regarded as his alibi, then who is hers? They cannot both go to the yard and also be each others alibi.

As Spooner seems to have left significantly earlier than everyone else on Reid's list of 28, we are obliged to ask; was Spooner excused?
If no, then why does it seem otherwise? If yes, then what privilege did Spooner enjoy, that none of the other interrogated people seem to have?

If Spooner was with his lady friend for up to at least half an hour [ 12:30 to 01:00 ], before he saw the two Jews running down the street from a murder which had occurred from 12:46 to 12:56 [ Blackwell ] of course he has an alibi. His lady friend is his alibi.
Regards Darryl

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Spooner was with his lady friend for up to at least half an hour [ 12:30 to 01:00 ], before he saw the two Jews running down the street from a murder which had occurred from 12:46 to 12:56 [ Blackwell ] of course he has an alibi. His lady friend is his alibi.
Regards Darryl

Where Spooner and lady friend were between 12:30 and 1:00, cannot be definitely ascertained by the police in the yard. All the police can do is ask for and record each persons account of themselves. Two people at a crime scene cannot be each others alibi. If that were the case, then any pair of people, or indeed any group of people, could claim to have been in each others company, prior to arriving at the yard, and then be excused. What sort of abuse would that invite?

So that is not how alibi's work. If Prince Eddy's alibi was Queen Victoria, who said he was at Abergeldie, Scotland, then it has been ascertained that the Queen was also there, at the time of the double event.
On the other hand, if two people named Eddy and Victoria are in Dutfield's Yard when the gates are closed, they don't get to leave early by claiming to have been talking outside a public-house, for the half hour prior to being informed of the murder.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Where Spooner and lady friend were between 12:30 and 1:00, cannot be definitely ascertained by the police in the yard. All the police can do is ask for and record each persons account of themselves. Two people at a crime scene cannot be each others alibi. If that were the case, then any pair of people, or indeed any group of people, could claim to have been in each others company, prior to arriving at the yard, and then be excused. What sort of abuse would that invite?

So that is not how alibi's work. If Prince Eddy's alibi was Queen Victoria, who said he was at Abergeldie, Scotland, then it has been ascertained that the Queen was also there, at the time of the double event.
On the other hand, if two people named Eddy and Victoria are in Dutfield's Yard when the gates are closed, they don't get to leave early by claiming to have been talking outside a public-house, for the half hour prior to being informed of the murder.

I get your point but would Jack [ two of them ], stand on the street corner outside a public house while two Jews run by, and then go back to the scene of the crime ?
He would probably scarper.
Anyway the point is moot
Witness: The legs of the deceased were drawn up, but her clothes were not disturbed. When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.
Inspector Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes. And had been searched? - Yes. And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.
IE - Satisfactory account of himself.
Spooner may have helped shut the gates because he was the person closest to Lamb, so Lamb just asked him.
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Just reading the inquest testimony again - No. Dr. Blackwell examined the body and its surroundings. Dr. Phillips came ten minutes later, and I had the entrance of the yard closed. This was while Dr. Blackwell was looking at the body. Before that the doors were wide open.
And Dr Phillips - I found Inspector Pinhorn and Acting-Superintendent West in possession of a body, which had already been seen by Dr. Blackwell, who had arrived some time before me.
So it seems that the gates were shut while Dr Blackwell was examining the body IE Before Phillips arrived . But we know that Phillips examined Spooner so it follows that Spooner was still there after the gates were shut. So maybe he wasn't allowed to go earlier after all.
Regards Darryl

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Just reading the inquest testimony again - No. Dr. Blackwell examined the body and its surroundings. Dr. Phillips came ten minutes later, and I had the entrance of the yard closed. This was while Dr. Blackwell was looking at the body. Before that the doors were wide open.
And Dr Phillips - I found Inspector Pinhorn and Acting-Superintendent West in possession of a body, which had already been seen by Dr. Blackwell, who had arrived some time before me.
So it seems that the gates were shut while Dr Blackwell was examining the body IE Before Phillips arrived . But we know that Phillips examined Spooner so it follows that Spooner was still there after the gates were shut. So maybe he wasn't allowed to go earlier after all.
Regards Darryl

We know Spooner claimed to have been examined by Phillips, but that contradicts what he had just said ...

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Then Reid seems to jump in immediately, to assure coroner and jury that Spooner was checked, like everyone else was.

Phillips arrived at 1:30. Reid was later. From the DT:

Detective-inspector Edmund Reid, H Division, stated, - I received a telegram at 1:25 a.m. on Sunday morning at the Commercial-street police office. I at once proceeded to 40, Berner-street. I saw there Chief Inspector West, Inspector Pinhorn, several sergeants and constables, Drs. Phillips and Blackwell, a number of residents in the yard, and club members, with persons who had come into the yard and had been shut in by the police. At that time Dr. Phillips, with Dr. Blackwell, was examining the throat of the deceased woman.

When Reid arrived, the people were still shut in. Phillips and Blackwell were examining the deceased.
So Spooner may well have been examined by Dr Phillips, and then left, yet have been gone by the time Reid arrived.
It is Reid who has the list of 28, and he possibly showed the list to Baxter at around dawn ...

About 4:30 the body was removed to the mortuary. I then informed you (the coroner) verbally at your residence, and then returned to the yard and made another examination.

It is not even obvious that Spooner was on the list. So what was special about Edward Spooner?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The gates were shut between the arrival of Johnston (~1:12), and Blackwell (1:16).
Spooner claims to have left through the club. Let's suppose he really did leave immediately after helping Lamb close the gates - say 1:15.
If Phillips arrived at 1:30, and immediately begins examining the deceased, more than 20 minutes will elapse from Spooner's departure, before Phillips can start examining the people.
So how can Spooner claim to leave on helping Lamb with gates, yet be in the yard for enough time that he can later claim to Reid, that he was examined by Phillips? Like this...?

C: Could any one have left without your observing it?
S: I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

Obviously this doesn't work, yet if the gates were open almost the entire time Spooner was at the yard, then Baxter's question may have triggered a sort of mathematical rationalization in Spooner's mind. 12:35 to 1:15 = 40 minutes, as does 1:00 to 1:40.
This might explain the contradiction of him claiming to arrive 5 minutes into his 30 or so minutes outside the Beehive. Does that make sense?

[Herlock Sholmes]

We know Spooner claimed to have been examined by Phillips, but that contradicts what he had just said ...

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Then Reid seems to jump in immediately, to assure coroner and jury that Spooner was checked, like everyone else was.

Phillips arrived at 1:30. Reid was later. From the DT:

Detective-inspector Edmund Reid, H Division, stated, - I received a telegram at 1:25 a.m. on Sunday morning at the Commercial-street police office. I at once proceeded to 40, Berner-street. I saw there Chief Inspector West, Inspector Pinhorn, several sergeants and constables, Drs. Phillips and Blackwell, a number of residents in the yard, and club members, with persons who had come into the yard and had been shut in by the police. At that time Dr. Phillips, with Dr. Blackwell, was examining the throat of the deceased woman.

When Reid arrived, the people were still shut in. Phillips and Blackwell were examining the deceased.
So Spooner may well have been examined by Dr Phillips, and then left, yet have been gone by the time Reid arrived.
It is Reid who has the list of 28, and he possibly showed the list to Baxter at around dawn ...

About 4:30 the body was removed to the mortuary. I then informed you (the coroner) verbally at your residence, and then returned to the yard and made another examination.

It is not even obvious that Spooner was on the list. So what was special about Edward Spooner?

That he wasn’t on the premises next to the scene of the murder at the time the murder occurred?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The gates were shut between the arrival of Johnston (~1:12), and Blackwell (1:16).
Spooner claims to have left through the club. Let's suppose he really did leave immediately after helping Lamb close the gates - say 1:15.
If Phillips arrived at 1:30, and immediately begins examining the deceased, more than 20 minutes will elapse from Spooner's departure, before Phillips can start examining the people.
So how can Spooner claim to leave on helping Lamb with gates, yet be in the yard for enough time that he can later claim to Reid, that he was examined by Phillips? Like this...?

C: Could any one have left without your observing it?
S: I cannot say, but I think there were too many people about. I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

Obviously this doesn't work, yet if the gates were open almost the entire time Spooner was at the yard, then Baxter's question may have triggered a sort of mathematical rationalization in Spooner's mind. 12:35 to 1:15 = 40 minutes, as does 1:00 to 1:40.
This might explain the contradiction of him claiming to arrive 5 minutes into his 30 or so minutes outside the Beehive. Does that make sense?

The 12.35 time be eliminated as an error. He got there 5 minutes or so before Lamb so not long after 1.00.

“As soon as the policeman came I stepped back, and afterwards helped to fasten the gates. When I left it was by the front door of the club. Before that I was searched, and gave my name and address. I was also examined by Dr. Phillips.”

Spooner doesn’t say that he left as soon as he fastened the gates.

He just said that he fastened the gates and when he left he left by the front door of the club. After he’d been checked by Phillips.

[drstrange169]

>>The 12.35 time be eliminated as an error. He got there 5 minutes or so before Lamb so not long after 1.00.<<

Quite right.

This is confirmed by Fanny Mortimer, who saw him lift Mrs Stride's head when she arrived (after one o'clock).


>>Spooner doesn’t say that he left as soon as he fastened the gates. He just said that he fastened the gates and when he left he left by the front door of the club. After he’d been checked by Phillips.<<

Yes, that seems blindingly clear to anyone with even just a basic command of the English language;-)

"I helped him to fasten the gate. Before I left I was examined by Dr. Phillips, and gave my name and address."