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  • #31
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Probably this girl, Daily News 1 Oct;

    "A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises."
    Probably not.

    The bisecting thoroughfare would be the intersection of Berner & Fairclough - would it not?
    Is that the corner of Christian street (where the Beehive is), or Grove street (where LD said he located ES)? Not really.

    Mrs. Mortimer said: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

    Prior to that from the same quote, she says: On going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates, with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm...

    The man was Edward Spooner: At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body. The majority of them appeared to be Jews. No one touched the body. One of them struck a match, and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand. The chin was slightly warm.

    So can we be absolutely sure that the young man and his sweetheart was not Spooner and his lady friend?
    It would be nice to hear from at least one of them directly.
    The Echo, Oct 1:

    From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
    "We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

      She's lying too.
      No, she's just a bit queasy...

      Spooner: Would you like to come around to Berner street with me and these Jewish guys, and check out the murder?
      Woman: No, not tonight, maybe some other night.
      Spooner: Well I'm going. Have a safe walk home!
      Woman (to herself): What a jerk.

      LOL
      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

        The Echo, Oct 1:

        From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
        "We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."
        This would be the right direction to head towards Mitre Square. Probably nothing, slightly intriguing.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

          Probably not.

          The bisecting thoroughfare would be the intersection of Berner & Fairclough - would it not?
          No, it would not. The thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street would be Fairclough Street. The intersection would be where the two cross each other. Two different things.
          The Beehive pub is on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street, so it is entirely possible for Spooner and his young lady to be both outside the Beehive and on the thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street. It's more like a hundred yards from the club, rather than fifty, mind.
          Incidentally, fifty yards would put them somewhere on the south side of the board school. Just where James Brown saw a couple 15 minutes earlier.

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          • #35
            The woman in the Echo report and her man, took a short walk along Commercial Rd, but spent most of their time together walking up and down Berner street.
            The only time they would have been on Fairclough street is when crossing the Berner/Fairclough intersection, or when briefly pausing at the board school corner.
            How far from the Dutfield's Yard is that?...

            Fanny: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away...

            Not a 100 yards. Not 50 yards. 20 yards. That is not Spooner.

            Spooner had no lady friend with him, outside the Beehive on the corner of Christian & Fairclough streets.
            In fact, when he begins his trip to the yard, he is probably not on Fairclough street at all...

            Louis: A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased.

            Originally posted by seanr View Post

            This would be the right direction to head towards Mitre Square. Probably nothing, slightly intriguing.
            The woman in the Echo report met her man "at the top of the street", before walking along Commercial Rd.
            So before saying goodnight, they are probably back on Commercial Rd, and a little around the corner from Berner St. Maybe they are standing under a lamp.
            The man appears to have been walking along Commercial Rd.
            Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 10-07-2020, 11:28 PM.
            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • #36
              I believe I've already demonstrated that the 'young sweethearts' could not have been Spooner and his claimed companion.
              However, JR is correct about the meaning of 'bisecting thoroughfare' - that it's a street which crosses the street in question, not an intersection...

              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

              No, it would not. The thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street would be Fairclough Street. The intersection would be where the two cross each other. Two different things.
              The Beehive pub is on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street, so it is entirely possible for Spooner and his young lady to be both outside the Beehive and on the thoroughfare bisecting Berner Street. It's more like a hundred yards from the club, rather than fifty, mind.
              Incidentally, fifty yards would put them somewhere on the south side of the board school. Just where James Brown saw a couple 15 minutes earlier.
              Okay, now regarding the highlighted bit...

              15 minutes earlier than what time?

              Here are the relevant bits from the Echo...

              girl: I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone.
              girl: I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street.

              When did this occur?
              Where does the girl live?

              Echo: From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

              girl: No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate.

              The man going in the direction of Aldgate, must have been witnessed just prior to the couple being alerted to the commotion outside #40 Berner.
              Why else would she have associated the two events?
              Perhaps there was something about the man's manner, that made him memorable to her.
              There is also this evidence that the couple were indeed aware of the murder, on the night...

              girl: We heard nothing whatever.
              Fanny: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street about 20 yards away before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

              Given that the young woman lives in Berner street, she herself could hardly have missed noticing.

              So getting back to the point of the initial question; at what approximate time are the young couple altered to the incident?
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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              • #37
                Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                So can we be absolutely sure that the young man and his sweetheart was not Spooner and his lady friend?
                We can.

                Michael Richards

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                • #38
                  Besides, Spooner didn't have a girlfriend.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                    We can.
                    I'm surprised you haven't responded to the question posed at the end of #36.
                    I thought it concerned one of your key interests - when did the murder occur and when do people start accumulating in Dutfield's Yard?
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                      Besides, Spooner didn't have a girlfriend.
                      Although he had been with a woman at a beershop on Settles street, earlier in the evening
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The London Evening News, Oct 1, had a report which began...

                        At the mortuary our reporter saw three men who had their suspicions raised on Saturday night by the conduct of a man and a woman in Settles-street, Commercial-road:

                        One of the men spoke about the flower in Stride's jacket...

                        John Gardner, labourer, 11, Chapman-street, corroborated all that Best said respecting the conduct of the man and the woman at the Bricklayers' Arms, adding "before I got into the mortuary to-day (Sunday) I told you the woman had a flower in her jacket, and that she had a short jacket. Well, I have been to the mortuary, and there she was with the dahlias on the right side of her jacket. I could swear she is the woman I saw at the Bricklayers' Arms, and she has the same smile on her face now that she had then.

                        At the inquest, DI Reid said:

                        She had an old black skirt and an old black jacket trimmed with fur. Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	Dahlia_Edinburgh_detail.jpg Views:	0 Size:	105.9 KB ID:	745316 Dahlia Click image for larger version  Name:	hardy-northern-maidenhair-fern.jpg Views:	0 Size:	169.5 KB ID:	745317 Maidenhair Fern

                        So apparently the flower had changed from when Stride was at the Bricklayer's Arms, to when she were found in Dutfield's Yard.

                        Edward Spooner also saw the flower:

                        I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket.

                        When did Spooner first see Stride that night?

                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 11-01-2020, 02:09 PM.
                        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I found a couple of other references to the flower on Stride's jacket, which include detail of the color or type.

                          Arbeter Fraint, Oct 5: The pale face was green, the eyes tightly closed, the back hair disheveled, the neck sliced wide-open [and] bathed in blood. In one hand, the murdered woman held a bunch of grapes and in the other a box of candies. She was dressed in black: poor but clean. She wore a red flower on her breast. The doctor continued to examine her and found no other wounds other than the broad gash on her neck.

                          Dr Blackwell (The People, Oct 7): I noticed a bunch of geraniums and maidenhair fern on her chest.

                          Other papers quoted Blackwell as saying 'a bunch of flowers'.
                          So how do these compare to Reid and Spooner?

                          Inspector Reid mortuary note (Times, Oct 6): I guessed her age at 42, length 5ft. 2in. complexion pale, hair dark brown and curly. I raised an eyelid and found that her eyes were light grey; I parted her lips and found that she had lost her upper teeth in front. She had an old black skirt and an old black jacket trimmed with fur. Fastened on the right side was a small bunch of flowers, consisting of maidenhair fern and a red rose. She had two light serge petticoats, white stockings, white chemise with insertion in front, side-spring boots, and black crape bonnet. In her jacket pocket I found two pocket-handkerchiefs, a thimble, and a piece of wool on a card.

                          Reid is thorough and guesses her age quite accurately, so 'maidenhair fern and a red rose', is probably accurate.

                          Spooner: I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket.

                          Only Spooner mentions a red and white flower.
                          The hypothesis is that Spooner is referring to the flower he expects to see, based on an earlier sighting of Stride, that evening, when she were wearing a different flower.
                          This may be the dahlia referred to by John Gardner, witnessed at the Bricklayers Arm's around 11pm, and the following day at the mortuary (and thus the hypothesis applies to him too, to some extent).
                          Even if the flower arrangement had changed at some point in the evening, the notion that Spooner reports to the coroner what was actually the previous arrangement (due to him seeing what he expects to see), must be regarded as something of a long-shot, because it requires Spooner to have been at the same location as Stride, or at least a nearby one, earlier that evening.
                          Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 11-22-2020, 01:35 PM.
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                          • #43
                            Where would one source a red rose in Whitechapel during September 1888?

                            You have pictured an unlikely type of maidenhair fern for a corsage.

                            My money would be on geraniums and delicate maidenhair fern as backing.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • #44
                              Then perhaps Blackwell got the type right, and Reid the color.

                              What's interesting about Arbeter Fraint saying the flower was red, was that this was before Reid's description in the Oct 6 papers, so AF's info must have come from a club member, who witnessed it in the yard on the night.
                              White would obviously show up well against the dark clothing, and yet, that paper only says red.
                              Maybe there had been a red and a white flower, and the white went missing at some point?

                              Matthew Packer: I saw that she was dressed in dark clothes, looked a middle aged woman, and carried a white flower in her hand. I saw that as plain as anything could be, and I am sure I should know the woman again. I was taken today to the see the dead body of a woman lying in Golden land mortuary, but I can swear that wasn't the woman that stood at my shop window on Saturday night.
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DJA View Post
                                Where would one source a red rose in Whitechapel during September 1888?
                                From a flower-girl?

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