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  • #46
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
    Maybe there had been a red and a white flower, and the white went missing at some point?
    Good each way bet.
    Might actually have the quinella.
    Throw in the maidenhair fern for the trifecta.
    Winner,winner,chicken dinner!

    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • #47
      Click image for larger version

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      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • #48
        Is that a readily available in 1888 flower, or something you searched hard for in Google images?
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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        • #49
          Wikipedia.
          Very common geranium.
          Had that color growing in my front garden circa 1980.
          Has a distinct perfume.Some like it,some don't.
          Very easy to propagate.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • #50
            Are you suggesting that Reid at the mortuary looked at a flower looking like this one you've posted, and thought to himself, "That would be a red rose", whereas in the darkness of Dutfield's Yard, Spooner could clearly see the flower was red and white?

            What is the purpose of such a suggestion? Are you trying to discredit Reid?
            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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            • #51
              Spooner: Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered."
              ...
              The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses. I stood at the top of the street for about five minutes, and then 25 minutes outside the publichouse. I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard.


              At what time did the publichouses close? If it were midnight, then we could possibly say that Spooner was actually standing around from just after 12:00 until just after 12:30.
              So did anyone see Spooner and his young female companion, in this period?
              The closest I can find is from the Illustrated Police News, Oct 6:

              Wess: I left the club for home at a quarter past twelve o'clock.
              ...
              Baxter: Did you notice anyone in the yard?
              Wess: No, sir.
              Baxter: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
              Wess: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.
              Baxter: Did you see no one nearer?
              Wess: No, sir.

              So Wess apparently saw a group of men and women on Fairclough street, at around 12:15, but not a couple.

              Did Diemschitz see the couple, standing outside the Beehive? The People, Oct 7:

              When I returned to the club a man whom we met in Grove street and told about the murder lifted the woman's head, and then for the first time I saw the wound in the throat.

              Wrong location, no woman.
              I wonder if the discrepancies between Diemschitz and Spooner, were in part due to Louis never actually leaving Dutfield's Yard to search for police?
              Apparently he had already seen quite a bit, before Spooner arrived. MA, Oct 1:

              ...Diemshitz entered the club by the side door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes were wet from the recent rain, but the heart had ceased to beat, and the stream of blood on the gutter, terminating in a hideous pool near the club door, showed but too plainly what had happened. Both ran off without delay to find a policeman...
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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              • #52
                You've likely noticed by now that all the descriptions of Stride's flower came from men. Ask any woman, men are hopeless at identifying flowers, hence the confused descriptions.
                My wife tells me you wouldn't get a rose around Oct. 1st. in England, wrong climate, and Geraniums smell too bad to use as a button-hole on a jacket, besides, once you cut them, they die.
                The Dahlia fits the description best, and they come with Red, with White petals.


                Regards, Jon S.

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                • #53
                  Some people really like the smell of geraniums.Some don't.Inexpensive.

                  Many dahlia growers would have lifted their dahlias before a cold wet 30th September.

                  However, best not to argue with a female,just ask Jack.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    You've likely noticed by now that all the descriptions of Stride's flower came from men. Ask any woman, men are hopeless at identifying flowers, hence the confused descriptions.
                    My wife tells me you wouldn't get a rose around Oct. 1st. in England, wrong climate, and Geraniums smell too bad to use as a button-hole on a jacket, besides, once you cut them, they die.
                    The Dahlia fits the description best, and they come with Red, with White petals.
                    If by 'fits the description best', you mean Spooner's description is closest to Gardner's reference to a Dahlia, then we are in agreement.

                    Alternatively, if you mean the one and only flower was most likely to be a Dahlia, regardless of descriptions, then the issue of color is still open - it could have been a red Dahlia, or it could have been a red and white Dahlia.
                    In that case, it would be matter of comparing the reliability of a Detective-inspector, viewing the deceased at the mortuary, with that of a man who:
                    • had been at the pub
                    • made illogical comments regarding the timing of his movements
                    • reported the cachous as being in the right hand, contradicting other reports
                    • was highly ambiguous about being him being alone or with a companion
                    • observed the flower under much darker conditions

                    Also, the notion of the flower changing at some point, and therefore of a possible period when no flower was worn, is more compatible with William Marshall's non-sighting of a flower, compared to a single Dahlia not removed before the murder.
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                      If by 'fits the description best', you mean Spooner's description is closest to Gardner's reference to a Dahlia, then we are in agreement.

                      Alternatively, if you mean the one and only flower was most likely to be a Dahlia, regardless of descriptions, then the issue of color is still open - it could have been a red Dahlia, or it could have been a red and white Dahlia.
                      In that case, it would be matter of comparing the reliability of a Detective-inspector, viewing the deceased at the mortuary, with that of a man who:
                      • had been at the pub
                      • made illogical comments regarding the timing of his movements
                      • reported the cachous as being in the right hand, contradicting other reports
                      • was highly ambiguous about being him being alone or with a companion
                      • observed the flower under much darker conditions

                      Also, the notion of the flower changing at some point, and therefore of a possible period when no flower was worn, is more compatible with William Marshall's non-sighting of a flower, compared to a single Dahlia not removed before the murder.
                      White petals were found in the yard when they washed the blood away.
                      Regards, Jon S.

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                      • #56
                        Along with a grape stalk.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • #57
                          Is anyone watching the detectives?
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                          • #58
                            Elvis Costello.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ukranianphil View Post
                              I am not putting him forward as Jack the Ripper, but i think he killed Elizabeth stride.
                              He was standing outside the bee hive pub with a young woman when he heard two jews shouting "murder and police!"
                              He said he had been to another beer shop before. Did police check this information out?

                              I Think he was out drinking, and spent his money, he panicked and saw Liz walk up and down berner street, he saw his chance, tried to rob her, realized she could recognize him, he slit her throat. He noticed schwarz's, and shouted "lipski!" Schwartz said the attacker who shouted, did so in English. He then
                              calmly walked round the corner to fairclough street, met his young woman outside the pub and when he herd Diemshitz and the other member he went back with them to the yard. He went over and touched her chin, he saw a chance to clear himself and he even helped Lamb close the doors. When police arrived, he got involved pretty quick, but he backed off quickly from the scene. He moved soon after the murder, and had a son in 1890. I hope someone can help me?
                              To prove he was liz strides murderer, i need to know 3 things.
                              1. His description.
                              2. was he married at the time of the murder.
                              3. what beershop was he in before he went to the bee hive.
                              The problem with your main premise is that he was with a woman when he says he saw the Jews, and when he arrived other Jews were already there. So, there is no point before his arrival there where he would have been anywhere near that gateway and ceratinly not alone with Liz, and Im sure his date said the same. He left the pub with that same girl at 12, when it closed. Walked with her to the Beehive.

                              Cant recall the pub on Commercials name at the moment.
                              Michael Richards

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                I'm surprised you haven't responded to the question posed at the end of #36.
                                I thought it concerned one of your key interests - when did the murder occur and when do people start accumulating in Dutfield's Yard?
                                Ive said it on plenty of occasions, but since you asked, ...I think Spooner saw 2 Jews running for help at around 12:40-45, which fits with 3 corroborative accounts and the estimated cut time range given by Blackwell. The Jews were not Louis and Issac[s]. Men were already by Liz when the Jews left the passageway, Louis was said tobe there when Issac K left for help around 12:40...alone. So the cut time would be just before that time, almost when Liz disappears from the street...12:35-12:40. She comes into the passageway, someone thinks she shouldnt be there, gets rough with her, she says a few things and turn to go back out onto the street, he grabs her scarf, twists it, making Liz twist to decrease pressure, he slips a knife under her chin, and as he runs it across her throat he drops the scarf. That takes a few scant seconds, and just 2 seconds for the actual attack. Just like Blackwell said he thought it happened.
                                Last edited by Michael W Richards; 11-24-2020, 12:44 AM.
                                Michael Richards

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