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Originally posted by ukranianphil
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Can someone please point me to this information?
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Me too. I've had a good look but can't find anything about Spooner moving address shortly after Stride's murder.
Can someone please point me to this information?Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing -
Edward Spooner is a far more credible East End murderer than Vincent Van Gogh and Lewis Carroll, which have been given at least some degree of attention as suspects (to varying degrees of seriousness, of course).Originally posted by ukranianphil View Post
I'd suggest another possibility than the robbery gone wrong. I am reminded of the case of Kitty Ronan, notable because she was murdered in the 12 Miller's Court in 1909. Her throat was cut so with obvious parallels to a Ripper crime, but in this instance the killer seems to have confessed to the crime. His story being he had accompanied her from Commercial Street to her room at Miller's Court and she had attempted to pick his pockets whilst they were engaging in some business. He had been carrying a knife which he had used to cut her throat and then run away from the scene. If he hadn't confessed it's hard to see how the culprit would ever have been caught.
If Liz Stride was soliciting that night, it was possible she tried to cheat her client, perhaps Edward Spooner or he thought she was going to rip her off, and he lost his temper. The client losing his control with a sex worker and the sex worker becoming the victim of violence, is an all too often repeated story. Especially amongst the vulnerable.
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Interesting post Sean, and Spooner is an interesting character - suspect or otherwise.
The problem with the notion of Stride soliciting on Berner street, is that the street was not known as an area for prostitution.
Baxter: Do low women frequent Berner-street?
Wess: I have seen men and women standing about and talking to each other in Fairclough-street.
Baxter: But have you observed them nearer the club?
Wess: No.
Which is ... also interesting.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothingComment
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The other problem is Spooner had an alibi.dustymiller
aka drstrangeComment
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That alibi being Louis Diemschitz. Now that's interesting.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothingComment
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That alibi being the young lady he'd been with all nightOriginally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View PostComment
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Did the police speak with this woman?
In other words, was her existence definitely ascertained?Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothingComment
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It's not just the young lady, it's all the locals in the beer house and Mr. Harris as well.dustymiller
aka drstrangeComment
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Why didn't the young lady go with him, to Dutfield's Yard?
Mr Harris is hardly an alibi - Spooner only sees him seconds before he reaches #40.
Mr Harris cannot tell us what Spooner had been doing - where, when, or with whom - prior to that moment.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothingComment
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>Why didn't the young lady go with him, to Dutfield's Yard?<<
How do we know she didn't?
>Mr Harris is hardly an alibi<<
He can verify that Spooner came from the direction of Christain Street as Spooner testified. For all we know, he may have seen the girl too. And there is still the matter of a beer shop full of locals.dustymiller
aka drstrangeComment
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Diemschitz: A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased.Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
What young lady?
And that's all he can do. Besides, I'm not disputing that point.>Mr Harris is hardly an alibi<<
He can verify that Spooner came from the direction of Christain Street as Spooner testified.
Spooner:For all we know, he may have seen the girl too.
We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard ...
I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived.
I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.
When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.
What girl?
On Settles Street?And there is still the matter of a beer shop full of locals.
Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothingComment
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In a case where the greater majority of the records are long lost, and we rely on snippets from newspapers, is this another example of devolving into "I have questions, that can't be answered. Therefore, the witness is lying"?
Spooner might be guilty. We can only assume his story was checked out, along with other witnesses that night. But any record of these interviews are gone. How many details were on a Bobby's pocketbook that we'd collectively love to read today?
It's always worth exploring these things, but Spooner is as crap a suspect as they come. Don't shoehorn him into some convuluted theory.
Unless, we're to believe, he lied about his companion. He lied about the pub too. He's only backed up by Mr Whippy, who was also lying. And the rest of the club. Liars too. And Schwartz? He was at Mitre Square apparently. And lying. The witnesses at Mitre Square? Lying. Packer? Now there's an honest chap, at last. Unless he was lying. Harris? Probably not lying. But can't help Spooner cover up his. Unless Harris was lying. Why not?
And that's just Berner St. Sheesh!Thems the Vagaries.....Comment
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Probably this girl, Daily News 1 Oct;
"A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises."Comment
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Let's have a look at some of the details we do have...Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
Diemschitz: I did not touch the body, but went off at once for the police. We passed several streets without meeting a policeman, and we returned without one... When I returned a man that we met in Grove-street, and who came back with us, took hold of the head, and as we lifted it up I first saw the wound in the throat.
Spooner: I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard...
Spooner: I did not meet anyone as I was hastening to Berner-street, except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay when he heard the policeman's whistle. He came running after me.
There is no woman with Spooner.
There is some discrepancy as to where Spooner was located, though.
Spooner is not my suspect, but I'll give you a clue who is; his name also starts with an 'S'It's always worth exploring these things, but Spooner is as crap a suspect as they come. Don't shoehorn him into some convuluted theory.
However, Spooner does play a role in my convoluted theory.
It's more complicated than that.Unless, we're to believe, he lied about his companion. He lied about the pub too. He's only backed up by Mr Whippy, who was also lying. And the rest of the club. Liars too. And Schwartz? He was at Mitre Square apparently. And lying. The witnesses at Mitre Square? Lying. Packer? Now there's an honest chap, at last. Unless he was lying. Harris? Probably not lying. But can't help Spooner cover up his. Unless Harris was lying. Why not?
And that's just Berner St. Sheesh!Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothingComment
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