Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[Abby Normal]

Interesting post, but before we all get carried away, I see a few issues.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and a large knife were used, which may not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment in one case was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water.
On the one in the trunk, what his aim was is of course unknown.
Are there details of the actual cuts and dismemberment?

Great research btw, and an interesting case, but I see little real connection to the Thames Torso murders.

Steve

youve got to be kidding el.

a known post mortem type serial killer dismemberer who was in London during timeframe of torsoman?

Hermans killed servant girls (torsoman undoubtedly had a bolt hole and cart-he had money and means and more than likely rused the women to it by means of offer of money for work-be it sex work or otherwise).
Had a medical background.
performed and abortion on one of his wives (jackson anybody?)
worked as city missionary in London-would have given him alot of access to unfortunates
Post mortem mutilation through dismemberment in whcih he bundled up parts in parcels (like torsoman)
Had no issue attracting and rusing women (which torsoman of course also did).
Police thought he was going to move body/parts in a trunk to perhaps discard "along the way"
was never apprehended.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and a large knife were used, which may not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

a razor and knives were found in the furnace.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment in one case was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water.
On the one in the trunk, what his aim was is of course unknown.
Are there details of the actual cuts and dismemberment?

minutia ad absurdam el. they were dismembered-anymore detailed similarities is just a bonus.
re trunk-Police thought he was going to move body/parts in the trunk to perhaps discard "along the way".

cmon el dont be such a wet blanket! lets see what people find on him and if he can be ruled out by anything-like he actually was NOT in London at the time of torso murders.

Until then he looks pretty good.

[Elamarna]

As for the use of body parts, Samuelson's dismembered body was put in a wooden box he had made to take with him to Kansas, this was a few weeks before the police learnt of his murders so Francis already had plans for the body parts. There are conflicting reports of wether he left individual bundled parts at Train stations along the way or he had the wooden box directly mailed to Kansas with the dismembered body in it.

Important point here, is there any certain record of any body parts relating to Samuelson being located?

As for the burning of Clawson there are also conflicting reports on wether the dismembered body parts were destroy by the fire, or "lightly scorched" in an attempt to mask identified of the body and each part was still perfectly intact, albeit slightly charred.

I'm hoping his case file can give some clarity if I receive it on how to bodies were cut.

If the file provides details of how the body was cut up you may be able to argue a link.
Time will tell.

Steve

[Astatine211]

This is a police drawings of the weapons thought to have been used in the murder and dismemberments.

[Elamarna]

The term "Thames Torso Murderer" is tossed around too freely, anyway.

No one has proved there was any such person.

The medicos suggested there were similarities, but really, now many different ways are there to disarticulate a joint?

I couldn't agree more.
Fortunately there is a book due on the Torso's later in the year, which I know will address many of these issues.

Steve

[Astatine211]

Interesting post, but before we all get carried away, I see a few issues.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and scissors were used, which does not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water

Great research btw, and an interesting case, but I see little real connection to the Thames Torso murders.

Steve

Hi, just to answer some of the details with the case you mentioned, it is believed he used and English made large butcher knife to dismember the bodies.

How the bodies were cut up I'm unsure of yet but I'm hoping his case file should shed some more light.

As for the use of body parts, Samuelson's dismembered body was put in a wooden box he had made to take with him to Kansas, this was a few weeks before the police learnt of his murders so Francis already had plans for the body parts. There are conflicting reports of wether he left individual bundled parts at Train stations along the way or he had the wooden box directly mailed to Kansas with the dismembered body in it.

As for the burning of Clawson there are also conflicting reports on wether the dismembered body parts were destroy by the fire, or "lightly scorched" in an attempt to mask identified of the body and each part was still perfectly intact, albeit slightly charred.

I'm hoping his case file can give some clarity if I receive it on how to bodies were cut.

[rjpalmer]

The term "Thames Torso Murderer" is tossed around too freely, anyway.

No one has proved there was any such person.

The medicos suggested there were similarities, but really, now many different ways are there to disarticulate a joint?

[Elamarna]

Interesting post, but before we all get carried away, I see a few issues.

The details on the dismemberment appear sparse, but it seems only a razor and a large knife were used, which may not really fit with the reports from Hebbert on the London cases.

No details of how the bodies were dismembered, only cut up into small parts.
Was the dismemberment at the joints?
Were the joints opened up?

It seems that the dismemberment in one case was simply to allow body parts to be easily burnt.
Very different from London, where body parts were disposed of on land or in water.
On the one supposedly in the trunk, what his aim was is of course unknown, if indeed a body was ever in the trunk, which is of course far from certain.

Great research btw, and an interesting case, but I see little real connection to the Thames Torso murders.

Steve

[MrBarnett]

Emmeline Smith - First known wife - Murdered 1889
Frank Hermans - First son with ES - Murdered 1889, 8 years old at death.
Bertha Wangen - Second known wife - Murder 1891 in Minnesota - Forced ingestion of ammonia - Lips corroded.
Bertha Wangen's child - Infant from another father - Murdered 1891
Caroline Crowley - Friend of Martha's - Disappeared 1892 - Potentially dismembered
Martha Elmira Lommen - Third known wife - Murdered 1893
Francis Hermans and Martha Elmira Lommen's child - Murdered 1893
Henrietta Clawson - Servant - Murdered 1895 - Dismembered
Annie Samuelson - Servant - Murdered 1896 - Dismembered

A,

Are you saying both Frank and Emmeline were murdered in 1889?

Gary

[rjpalmer]

I'm assuming his address in 1890/91 is 48 Claremont Street, Glasgow, not "Ularemont."

He was a Methodist in Salt Lake City, but there is/was a Presbyterian Church at 78 Claremont Street, Glasgow. "St. George's Tron Church," which is still holding services.

Maybe he wormed his way in.

[Abby Normal]

Emmeline Smith - First known wife - Murdered 1889
Frank Hermans - First son with ES - Murdered 1889, 8 years old at death.
Bertha Wangen - Second known wife - Murder 1891 in Minnesota - Forced ingestion of ammonia - Lips corroded.
Bertha Wangen's child - Infant from another father - Murdered 1891
Caroline Crowley - Friend of Martha's - Disappeared 1892 - Potentially dismembered
Martha Elmira Lommen - Third known wife - Murdered 1893
Francis Hermans and Martha Elmira Lommen's child - Murdered 1893
Henrietta Clawson - Servant - Murdered 1895 - Dismembered
Annie Samuelson - Servant - Murdered 1896 - Dismembered

woah pastor bluebeard is like chapman on steroids

[MrBarnett]

You’re on a roll, RJ.!

deleted

[Astatine211]

so how many wives did Pastor Bluebeard have that died mysteriously?

Emmeline Smith - First known wife - Murdered 1889
Frank Hermans - First son with ES - Murdered 1889, 8 years old at death.
Bertha Wangen - Second known wife - Murder 1891 in Minnesota - Forced ingestion of ammonia - Lips corroded.
Bertha Wangen's child - Infant from another father - Murdered 1891
Caroline Crowley - Friend of Martha's - Disappeared 1892 - Potentially dismembered
Martha Elmira Lommen - Third known wife - Murdered 1893
Francis Hermans and Martha Elmira Lommen's child - Murdered 1893
Henrietta Clawson - Servant - Murdered 1895 - Dismembered
Annie Samuelson - Servant - Murdered 1896 - Dismembered

[MrBarnett]

Comes up under Electoral Registers for Glasgow

Francis Hermans

1891

48 Ularemont street

Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Glasgow

Missionary

You’re on a roll, RJ.!

[rjpalmer]

Nice one, RJ. I saw the Smith maiden name for Kate’s mother, but didn’t twig that was also Emmeline’s.

Just as long as no one suggest Emmeline Smith went by the name Emma.

[MrBarnett]

A City Missionary would have been very much involved in saving ‘fallen’ women. And there would have been quite a few of those over in Rotherhithe.

In Spitalfields you’ll see the name Charles Pateman on dozens of Christchurch marriage certs He was a City Missionary who was instrumental in legalising many informal relationships among the doss house population.

One City Missionary was in contact with MJK I recall.