Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[Astatine211]

Does anyone have access to the Salt Lake Daily Herald of either 10/11 or 11/10 1896? There’s a piece in there, ‘Hermans’ First Wife’ that might be interesting.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85058130/1896-10-11/ed-1/seq-1/

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85058130/1896-11-10/ed-1/seq-1/

These should be the two you're looking for.

[MrBarnett]

Does anyone have access to the Salt Lake Daily Herald of either 10/11 or 11/10 1896? There’s a piece in there, ‘Hermans’ First Wife’ that might be interesting.

[Observer]

Emmeline Smith - First known wife - Murdered 1889
Frank Hermans - First son with ES - Murdered 1889, 8 years old at death.
Bertha Wangen - Second known wife - Murder 1891 in Minnesota - Forced ingestion of ammonia - Lips corroded.
Bertha Wangen's child - Infant from another father - Murdered 1891
Caroline Crowley - Friend of Martha's - Disappeared 1892 - Potentially dismembered
Martha Elmira Lommen - Third known wife - Murdered 1893
Francis Hermans and Martha Elmira Lommen's child - Murdered 1893
Henrietta Clawson - Servant - Murdered 1895 - Dismembered
Annie Samuelson - Servant - Murdered 1896 - Dismembered

Moot question from me, however. Seeing as Hermans seems to have murdered and dismembered wives, and individuals known to him, is it reasonable to assume that should he have been the London Torso killer, the victims were known to him? By the way, I share the view of a couple of posters who have expressed the opinion that the London Torso killer didn't exist.

[MrBarnett]

Well done, Gary. Same general part of Glasgow as Claremont Street. Less than a mile. It would be nice to find Frank Jr.

I can't help noticing that some of the newspaper accounts have such titles as "The Mormon Murders" etc

He was in Salt Lake City, but he was an evangelical!

It seems more than a tad dishonest.

There was a Francis G. Hermans, a former clerk in a newspaper office, aged 28, residing in an epileptic colony in Cheshire in 1911.

[Varqm]

Interesting find.

[rjpalmer]

Well done, Gary. Same general part of Glasgow as Claremont Street. Less than a mile. It would be nice to find Frank Jr.

I can't help noticing that some of the newspaper accounts have such titles as "The Mormon Murders" etc

He was in Salt Lake City, but he was an evangelical!

It seems more than a tad dishonest.

[MrBarnett]

And here’s his entry in the Glasgow Post Office Directory 1889-90, printed in 1889.

[MrBarnett]

Looks like he was based in Glasgow in late 1889.

Geographically he looks wrong, but he was a bit of a gadabout.

[rjpalmer]

I disagree completely rj and surprised you would post something like this.

By all means go your own way, Abby, but this is not merely a throwaway idea on my part.

London was one of the world's largest and most populated cities. It would have been mighty strange if there weren't cases like this in London in the 1870s and 80s. Every other major world city had them.

But don't only look at the unsolved 'torso' cases and think you have a mystery on your hands. Look at the solved ones and you'll see a pattern.

You'll see domestic murders committed in crowded districts, where the perpetrator is forced to smuggle the body out of his lodgings.

Or you'll find botched abortion cases where the woman is put in a cart, sometimes in two pieces, and thrown in the local river.

That several such cases happen in any given city is not proof they are related, though I acknowledge some of them could be.

One thing that worries me about the medicos is that they are always keen to claim the dismemberer showed no anatomical skill.

But they would say that, wouldn't they?

If a doctor botches an illegal abortion and disposes of the body, is he going to advertise his skill by performing a perfect amputation?

[Elamarna]

hi el
what book? by whom?

From Mango, by Suzie Huntingdon. Not sure title. But covers from 73 to turn of century

Steve

[Elamarna]

Duplicate

[Elamarna]

youve got to be kidding el.

Not at all Abbey

a known post mortem type serial killer dismemberer who was in London during timeframe of torsoman?

It is far from certain there was a siingle Torsoman.
Dismemberer can cover many things.
Are the methods used and the cuts similar?

Hermans killed servant girls (torsoman undoubtedly had a bolt hole and cart-he had money and means and more than likely rused the women to it by means of offer of money for work-be it sex work or otherwise).

Speculation that there was a single torso man, I know it's popular to claim so these days, but it's far from proven.
Have you considered that in some cases the bolt hole and means of transport could be a boat rather than a cart.

Had a medical background.
performed and abortion on one of his wives (jackson anybody?)
worked as city missionary in London-would have given him alot of access to unfortunates.

Interesting, but hardly conclusive,

Post mortem mutilation through dismemberment in whcih he bundled up parts in parcels (like torsoman)

To take them to burn in a furnace, not to distribute around town, or dump in a river.

Again you are obviously convinced there was a serial killer, in London doing so, I am far from that.

Had no issue attracting and rusing women (which torsoman of course also did).

Assumption and speculation Abby, given that only Jackson is identified we surely can't make that claim.

Police thought he was going to move body/parts in a trunk to perhaps discard "along the way"
was never apprehended.

Were any of those body parts ever found, I can find no conclusive evidence of such.
Thats why I have asked that question.

a razor and knives were found in the furnace.

Yes, I am not sure they match the cuts and methods used in london

minutia ad absurdam el. they were dismembered-anymore detailed similarities is just a bonus.

Not at all, if the methods used are not similar, it surely argues against the same perpetrator.

re trunk-Police thought he was going to move body/parts in the trunk to perhaps discard "along the way".

I have asked, if there is any actual evidence of such, rather than police speculation.

cmon el dont be such a wet blanket! lets see what people find on him and if he can be ruled out by anything-like he actually was NOT in London at the time of torso murders.

Until then he looks pretty good.

We will disagree, the older I get, birthday last week, the more I want solid facts rather than endless maybes and possibles.

I see significant differences, and am far from convinced of a single hand in London.

New book on Thames Torso's from Mango later in the year. That may I think be a game changer on the Torso's.

Hope you are well btw.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

I couldn't agree more.
Fortunately there is a book due on the Torso's later in the year, which I know will address many of these issues.

Steve

hi el
what book? by whom?

[Abby Normal]

The term "Thames Torso Murderer" is tossed around too freely, anyway.

No one has proved there was any such person.

The medicos suggested there were similarities, but really, now many different ways are there to disarticulate a joint?

well the police, drs at the time thought it was all by one man as do the modern experts. dismemberment was rare at the time, parts were found in same general area, they were left in weird places.

of course no one Proved it. no one has proved there was a one man as the ripper either. how do you "prove" something like this anyway-an unknown serial killer never caught? thats diary defender logic.

I disagree completely rj and surprised you would post something like this.

[Elamarna]

This is a police drawings of the weapons thought to have been used in the murder and dismemberments.

Thank you.
Not sure those are sufficient for the cuts in the London cases.