Francis Hermans - Update - Solid evidence of him being in vicinity of torso murders.

[Abby Normal]

Okay I've accessed the passenger list and if it's the same one he travelled from Liverpool to New York on 8th April 1891 and I was also able to find a photo of him.

Carrie Brown was murdered in NY on April 24 1891.

[MrBarnett]

I found this about Samuel, it's list him living with a Kate Marshall

Incidentally, he was living at the Half Moon Inn in Kirdford at the time. John Marshall, Kate’s father, was the publican.

[rjpalmer]

I think Kate Marshall might be a cousin to Samuel Hermans, so I am wrong about there being no blood relationship.

John Marshall's wife was Eliza Smith, and Hermans married a Emmeline Smith; there's two sisters with those names in Highclere, Hampshire in 1861. Her name is given as Emeline Smith, rather than Emmeline.

Eliza also died, so that must have left the daughter Kate to serve as Samuel's guardian while Bluebeard globetrotted.

John Marshall

Male

18 Apr 1861

Highclere, Southampton, England

John Marshal

Eliza Smith

1596166

item 4

[MrBarnett]

The supposed Edinburgh wedding to DC and the Scottish POB on the census suggest there may have been some kind of a Scots connection. The census info might have come from the Marshalls who were unaware of Samuel’s French birth, but knew he had something Scottish in his background.

[Abby Normal]

I think Kate Marshall might be a cousin to Samuel Hermans, so I am wrong about there being no blood relationship.

John Marshall's wife was Eliza Smith, and Hermans married a Emmeline Smith; there's two sisters with those names in Highclere, Hampshire in 1861. Her name is given as Emeline Smith, rather than Emmeline.

Eliza also died, so that must have left the daughter Kate to serve as Samuel's guardian while Bluebeard globetrotted.

John Marshall

Male

18 Apr 1861

Highclere, Southampton, England

John Marshal

Eliza Smith

1596166

item 4

Pastor Bluebeard looking more and more intriguing. "you would say anything but your prayers".

Is there any evidence he was in the navy at any point? his son samual was in the military right? was that the navy??

[Abby Normal]

so how many wives did Pastor Bluebeard have that died mysteriously?

[MrBarnett]

I think Kate Marshall might be a cousin to Samuel Hermans, so I am wrong about there being no blood relationship.

John Marshall's wife was Eliza Smith, and Hermans married a Emmeline Smith; there's two sisters with those names in Highclere, Hampshire in 1861. Her name is given as Emeline Smith, rather than Emmeline.

Eliza also died, so that must have left the daughter Kate to serve as Samuel's guardian while Bluebeard globetrotted.

John Marshall

Male

18 Apr 1861

Highclere, Southampton, England

John Marshal

Eliza Smith

1596166

item 4

Nice one, RJ. I saw the Smith maiden name for Kate’s mother, but didn’t twig that was also Emmeline’s.

[rjpalmer]

The supposed Edinburgh wedding to DC and the Scottish POB on the census suggest there may have been some kind of a Scots connection. The census info might have come from the Marshalls who were unaware of Samuel’s French birth, but knew he had something Scottish in his background.

Comes up under Electoral Registers for Glasgow

Francis Hermans

1891

48 Ularemont street

Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Glasgow

Missionary

[MrBarnett]

A City Missionary would have been very much involved in saving ‘fallen’ women. And there would have been quite a few of those over in Rotherhithe.

In Spitalfields you’ll see the name Charles Pateman on dozens of Christchurch marriage certs He was a City Missionary who was instrumental in legalising many informal relationships among the doss house population.

One City Missionary was in contact with MJK I recall.

[rjpalmer]

Nice one, RJ. I saw the Smith maiden name for Kate’s mother, but didn’t twig that was also Emmeline’s.

Just as long as no one suggest Emmeline Smith went by the name Emma.

[MrBarnett]

Comes up under Electoral Registers for Glasgow

Francis Hermans

1891

48 Ularemont street

Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Glasgow

Missionary

You’re on a roll, RJ.!

[Astatine211]

so how many wives did Pastor Bluebeard have that died mysteriously?

Emmeline Smith - First known wife - Murdered 1889
Frank Hermans - First son with ES - Murdered 1889, 8 years old at death.
Bertha Wangen - Second known wife - Murder 1891 in Minnesota - Forced ingestion of ammonia - Lips corroded.
Bertha Wangen's child - Infant from another father - Murdered 1891
Caroline Crowley - Friend of Martha's - Disappeared 1892 - Potentially dismembered
Martha Elmira Lommen - Third known wife - Murdered 1893
Francis Hermans and Martha Elmira Lommen's child - Murdered 1893
Henrietta Clawson - Servant - Murdered 1895 - Dismembered
Annie Samuelson - Servant - Murdered 1896 - Dismembered

[MrBarnett]

You’re on a roll, RJ.!

deleted

[Abby Normal]

Emmeline Smith - First known wife - Murdered 1889
Frank Hermans - First son with ES - Murdered 1889, 8 years old at death.
Bertha Wangen - Second known wife - Murder 1891 in Minnesota - Forced ingestion of ammonia - Lips corroded.
Bertha Wangen's child - Infant from another father - Murdered 1891
Caroline Crowley - Friend of Martha's - Disappeared 1892 - Potentially dismembered
Martha Elmira Lommen - Third known wife - Murdered 1893
Francis Hermans and Martha Elmira Lommen's child - Murdered 1893
Henrietta Clawson - Servant - Murdered 1895 - Dismembered
Annie Samuelson - Servant - Murdered 1896 - Dismembered

woah pastor bluebeard is like chapman on steroids

[rjpalmer]

I'm assuming his address in 1890/91 is 48 Claremont Street, Glasgow, not "Ularemont."

He was a Methodist in Salt Lake City, but there is/was a Presbyterian Church at 78 Claremont Street, Glasgow. "St. George's Tron Church," which is still holding services.

Maybe he wormed his way in.