Stride..a victim?

[caz]

Surely the chances of the killer being interrupted just as, or immediately after, he’d cut her throat are exactly the same as if he’d been interrupted at any other point in the operation? If Diemschutz had been 5 seconds earlier Stride might have ended up dying of old age.

Ditto for Nichols, if Cross or Paul had come along Buck's Row a little while earlier.

Ditto for Chapman, if someone had been caught short and visited the outdoor privy just as she and her killer were entering the yard. Even worse if someone had come out of the privy while Jack was about to get stuck in! Surely, between 8th and 30th September, he'd have given a passing thought to how close he could have come to being caught in the act.

Another point is that if the killer's only goal was to obtain the womb from a victim [something I can't believe anyone would still believe today], and he had the skill to do it if given the opportunity, there must have been a reason why he didn't achieve that goal in Buck's Row and had to find a second victim the following weekend. Was he interrupted by the sound of Cross approaching? Was he aware that someone might come along at any moment, on their way to work, or even a copper on his beat, and decided to quit while he was ahead? Was her clothing impeding his progress? Or was it just a lack of confidence, which he worked on over the following week and overcame in the backyard of Hanbury Street?

If Cross's approach did interrupt the killer of Nichols before he could get at her womb, why on earth could the sound of Louis's pony and cart not have put paid to any chance of Stride's killer doing more than to cut her throat, swiftly and silently, and to get the hell away from there, regardless of whether or not his goal had been to do more? Instead of waiting a week to try again, might he not have been less patient this time, and keener to get straight back on the job before the night was out?

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ditto for Nichols, if Cross or Paul had come along Buck's Row a little while earlier.

Ditto for Chapman, if someone had been caught short and visited the outdoor privy just as she and her killer were entering the yard. Even worse if someone had come out of the privy while Jack was about to get stuck in! Surely, between 8th and 30th September, he'd have given a passing thought to how close he could have come to being caught in the act.

Another point is that if the killer's only goal was to obtain the womb from a victim [something I can't believe anyone would still believe today], and he had the skill to do it if given the opportunity, there must have been a reason why he didn't achieve that goal in Buck's Row and had to find a second victim the following weekend. Was he interrupted by the sound of Cross approaching? Was he aware that someone might come along at any moment, on their way to work, or even a copper on his beat, and decided to quit while he was ahead? Was her clothing impeding his progress? Or was it just a lack of confidence, which he worked on over the following week and overcame in the backyard of Hanbury Street?

If Cross's approach did interrupt the killer of Nichols before he could get at her womb, why on earth could the sound of Louis's pony and cart not have put paid to any chance of Stride's killer doing more than to cut her throat, swiftly and silently, and to get the hell away from there, regardless of whether or not his goal had been to do more? Instead of waiting a week to try again, might he not have been less patient this time, and keener to get straight back on the job before the night was out?

Love,

Caz
X

There’s no reason at all to suggest that the killer couldn’t have been interrupted of course Caz. Michael repeatedly points out that because there’s no positive evidence of interruption then we should assume that there was none. But, as we all know, there’s no reason that we should expect such evidence (as I tried to illustrate with my bag snatching analogy.) If he’d been interrupted 2 or 3 seconds later then yes Liz might have been discovered with her skirts raised but no mutilation but if he’d been disturbed just as he’d finished drawing the knife across her throat they we are left with nothing. So it’s obviously possible that the killer was interrupted. I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone could dispute this very obvious reasoning.

[FrankO]

This begs the question as to why Smith only sees Stride and man with parcel, when returning up Berner street, but not when going down it.

Although I think you're right, the evidence leaves room for the notion that they had been there already when Smith came down Berner Street and that he only looked at or noticed them when he went back up. Maybe they had just come from a shady recess offered by the board school.

Times of 6 October:
"When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road."

They seem to have appeared on the scene very quickly. So from where did they come from to get where Smith saw them?...

One possibility is from Dutfield's Yard, but then if they were leaving there, why then stop a short distance away, on the other side of the street?
Another option is that they followed Smith down Berner street, and he didn't notice they were some distance behind him. If this had been the case, then the distance they would have walked behind Smith cannot have been far, as Smith only has a little way to go to get to Fairclough street, and then turn around.
Another possibility is that the couple had just walked through Hampshire Court...

They could also have come from Sander Street or the yard 4 houses north of Hamshire Court or the court right next to the Mission Hall (if they weresn't closed yards/courts, of course).

Perhaps the intention was to go into the yard, but having seen the constable, they decided to wait until he had disappeared up Berner street.

The same question applies to Fanny Mortimer. Where had the couple gone when she goes to her doorstep?
They had been standing almost directly across from her place. They must have been speaking very quietly for Fanny not to have heard anything, if she were near the front of the house at the time.

So perhaps the couple had continued on down Berner street, past where William Marshall had seen them. But then why the pause?
Perhaps they had gone up Berner street, just far enough behind Smith that he doesn't notice them. But why turn around and walk back to where they had just come from?

We can only guess, there's no way of knowing or even intuiting their motives and intentions.

Then there is the possibility they have gone through Hampshire Court, and thus to Batty street.

That doesn't seem to be possible, as the Batty Street end of Hamshire Court seems to be closed, or at least it is on the map we're both looking at.

[FrankO]

Also you’d have though that if there’s one thing that even the most Laurel and Hardy level plotters would have tried to ensure was that everyone had their timings co-ordinated. They would have known that the police would have wanted to question everyone so why would they have been prepared for some members to have blabbed a time of discovery that they were trying to cover up? After all, there weren’t that many members left at the club. We have a lengthy list of things that just don’t make sense for any plot to have taken place. It’s a poorly thought out plot that achieved nothing and is based around 4 shaky/unreliable witnesses for its foundation.

Indeed, Herlock.

If the murderer had come from the club, I could imagine that the club would concoct some plan to deflect suspicion away from the murderer and the club. So, I can imagine they would have wanted to give the murderer time to clean up, if possible change into some other clothes, get their story & timings straight, decide on who would do what & when and, preferibly, have the murderer leave the club before they would go for the police.

If the murder didn't come from the club and Stride's body was just discovered around 12:40 am, then the best plan would have been to get Stride on a cart, cover her body, drive to some quiet place and leave her there. And, of course, clean the crime spot.

But even the first alternative doesn't go well with the evidence. Why would they send Kozebrodski to go looking for a policeman immediately after the murder? Why would they send 2 other Jews to go running and calling for one at almost the same time? Why would they want to bring someone from the public (Spooner) back only minutes after the murder? Why would they want to attract other people from public (Heshburg, Mr. Harris) to the yard by whistling or other commotion right after the murder? Why would they want Eagle & Lave to be so vague about their timings that it could seem that they were in the yard at the same time, but didn't see each other? None of it makes sense.

[Joshua Rogan]

That doesn't seem to be possible, as the Batty Street end of Hamshire Court seems to be closed, or at least it is on the map we're both looking at.

Which map are you using? The Goad 1890 map appears to show an archway through the building at the Batty Street end.

[caz]

There’s no reason at all to suggest that the killer couldn’t have been interrupted of course Caz. Michael repeatedly points out that because there’s no positive evidence of interruption then we should assume that there was none. But, as we all know, there’s no reason that we should expect such evidence (as I tried to illustrate with my bag snatching analogy.) If he’d been interrupted 2 or 3 seconds later then yes Liz might have been discovered with her skirts raised but no mutilation but if he’d been disturbed just as he’d finished drawing the knife across her throat they we are left with nothing. So it’s obviously possible that the killer was interrupted. I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone could dispute this very obvious reasoning.

Hi Herlock,

The argument now seems to be that because Stride was left unripped she could not have been a ripper victim. But how is this logical? It implies that if the ripper had seen Stride in the company of other men and assumed she was in business, like Nichols and Chapman, he'd have ripped her regardless of what was going around around him. The fact that nobody ever saw an actual murder being committed suggests that the killer in each case took sufficient care to act only while the coast was clear.

Perhaps the argument should stick to the killer of Nichols and Chapman being out of action at the end of September. That's the only logical way to argue for the 'ripper' to be eliminated as a suspect for both the Stride and Eddowes murders. He needs a bloody good alibi.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

This Keystone Cops problem solving is hard to let go of I see. There absolutely would be some evidence of an interruption if one had happened of course. You folks seem to think interruptions happen by plan, or that a killer tidies up before he flees. No-one was seen leaving by the gates from 12:50 to 1, so he starts up his hot air balloon he left in the yard and pops up into the sky..away from anyone who might be looking for him at ground level. Which of course there was. People who arent near locks or do not have identified watches do not as a rule give accurate times......(Diemshitz, Eagle, Lave), and people who do have access to watches and clocks refer to those devices when they want to check the time... (Fanny, Heschberg, Gillen and Issac K). Pretending that the former is more reliable than the latter is just ridiculous. There is no universal time on anyones clock and watch, to expect that any witness had the exact correct time anywhere is also ridiculous. But when 4 people give the same time and events within a 5 minute span...well, do I need to keep pointing out the bleeding obvious? A rhetorcal question of course...some of you folks dont get it and never will.

Ripper man got his name because after he kills he rips the victims open,...the obvious again is that Liz Stride has one cut and no evidence that she was even touched again by her killer. To play these...yeah, maybe he chose not to riip...maybe despite any evidence being left there was an interruption, yeah,...maybe Fanny had sneezing fits at her door at 1am and didnt see Louis arriving, or yeah,..she could hear a single pair of boots while inside but Israels supposed yell from BSM across the street was at frequencies only dogs can hear......

Israel had nothing to add here, only an excuse for who might have killed her. And surprise, its not anyone from the club...its a gentile from off premises.

To keep using banal and frankly baseless arguments to discredit my observation of the facts and suggesting storylines that fit them is I guess fun for you...but it misinforms everyone gullible enough tyo buy your tainietd goods and does a disservice to anyone really looking to find out what happened. Creating fictional interruptions, Ripperless Rippers and suggesting fradulent clock readers only serves one purpose...to try and forward your Ripper agenda.

Glad I passed on making conclusions before the facts, you should try it sometime.

[FrankO]

Which map are you using? The Goad 1890 map appears to show an archway through the building at the Batty Street end.

Hi Joshua,

I'm using the OS London, Five feet to the Mile, 1893-1896, see here:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.51670&lon=-0.07610&layers=163&b=1

Looking at this map, it seems that the Batty Street end of Hampshire Court is blocked/closed by some building, but I'm sure you're right in that, in fact, an archway went through that building.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

This Keystone Cops problem solving is hard to let go of I see.

Amazing You concoct a fantasy and then criticise others for pointing it out.

There absolutely would be some evidence of an interruption if one had happened of course. You folks seem to think interruptions happen by plan, or that a killer tidies up before he flees.

Even more amazing A toddler could understand that this is nonsense. Name the evidence? What would you expect to see. Not what might have been there but what would have had to have been evident? I can no longer pass you constant repeating of this as misunderstanding because it’s impossible that an adult can’t understand this. It’s dishonesty, pure and simple and everyone can see it.

No-one was seen leaving by the gates from 12:50 to 1, so he starts up his hot air balloon he left in the yard and pops up into the sky..away from anyone who might be looking for him at ground level.

So, all through the history of crime or simply of events when someone leaves a location unseen but no one sees them then we are right to proclaim that that person was never there in the first place? More kindergarten logic.

Which of course there was. People who arent near locks or do not have identified watches do not as a rule give accurate times......(Diemshitz, Eagle, Lave), and people who do have access to watches and clocks refer to those devices when they want to check the time... (Fanny, Heschberg, Gillen and Issac K).

I’ll ask again, show me the proof that Fanny Mortimer owned a clock? I’ll save you the time Michael, that proof doesn’t exist.

For those that were inside the club - was there a clock? I don’t know if you can point to proof of that one but you may be able to. I don’t know? But here’s a thing with human beings Micheal, they can only look in one direction at a time. Does that come as a shock to you? So what if, when they were informed that there was a dead body in the yard, the clock on the wall was behind them (I know that you’ll probably find that staggeringly unlikely - or more accurately, inconvenient) So what reason would they have had, when told, to check the clock and log the time. I’ll answer that one for you too....absolutely none.

Ive asked you and Frank has asked you but who is Gillen?? Is it Gilleman?

Pretending that the former is more reliable than the latter is just ridiculous.

I’ve just demonstrated what ridiculous is. Your nonsense about clocks. And as for your statement about Mortimer’s clock - what do you call it when someone states an unknown as a fact to suit their argument?

There is no universal time on anyones clock and watch, to expect that any witness had the exact correct time anywhere is also ridiculous.

I’ve been saying this for days. Keep up.

But when 4 people give the same time and events within a 5 minute span...well, do I need to keep pointing out the bleeding obvious? A rhetorcal question of course...some of you folks dont get it and never will.

More dishonesty. Eagle said he saw the body at 1.00. Spooner said 12.35 and then he said just after 12.55. Hoschberg said “about 12.45 I should think.” Kozebrodski said “about 12.40.”

The fact that they are even remotely close is hardly surprising is it. None of them are going to say 4.30 are they? Fallible witnesses one of whom definitely had no access to a clock. Did Kozebrodski and Henschberg check a click? The use of the words “about” and “I should think” strongly suggest no. These witnesses can safely be ignored on timings unless you’re a conspiracy theorist desperate to prop up a theory at all costs.

Ripper man got his name because after he kills he rips the victims open,...the obvious again is that Liz Stride has one cut and no evidence that she was even touched again by her killer.

You are simply humiliating yourself by constantly going on about this Michael. Show some self-respect, admit you’re wrong and let it go for f*^*s sake!

To play these...yeah, maybe he chose not to riip...maybe despite any evidence being left there was an interruption,

Pathetic. Sorry but there’s no other word for this.

yeah,...maybe Fanny had sneezing fits at her door at 1am and didnt see Louis arriving, or yeah,..she could hear a single pair of boots while inside but Israels supposed yell from BSM across the street was at frequencies only dogs can hear......

Feeble and embarrassing. She was in a house. She wasn’t chained to the front room. Grow up.

Israel had nothing to add here, only an excuse for who might have killed her. And surprise, its not anyone from the club...its a gentile from off premises.

Maybe it was a Freemason. Or a shapeshifting Illuminati? You never know?

To keep using banal and frankly baseless arguments to discredit my observation of the facts and suggesting storylines that fit them is I guess fun for you...

By banal you mean normal, common sense, reasonable, non-barking mad conspiracy waffle. It’s you that is suggesting a storyline here Michael. You talk of trying to discredit you. It’s nothing of the kind. Try disengaging your ego for a second. All that’s been done on this thread has been posters disagreeing with you until you threw two massive, childish tantrums.

but it misinforms everyone gullible enough tyo buy your tainietd goods and does a disservice to anyone really looking to find out what happened.

All of this outrage because you can’t cope with being disagreed with.

Creating fictional interruptions,

You can’t know it didn’t happen. I’m asking you to stop embarrassing yourself and the subject on this point Micheal. It’s black and white. We could not expect to see evidence of interruption.

Ripperless Rippers and suggesting fradulent clock readers only serves one purpose..

Like you fraudulently claiming that FM had a clock to suit your argument.

to try and forward your Ripper agenda.

Fringe lunacy. You’re the one with the agenda.

Glad I passed on making conclusions before the facts, you should try it sometime.

No, you’ve taken Schwartz absence from the Inquest and looked for a cover up. You’ve found 4 witnesses who’ve very obvious given mistaken times and put 2 and 2 together and made 17. A transparent agenda.

I should probably give up asking if Gillen is Gilleman and I should probably also stop asking for a list of the experts that agree with your theory. Or is everyone so stupid that they can’t see it. Only you eh Micheal?

Your just repeating the same erroneous logic; obvious distortions and blatant and unswerving agenda.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s now beyond question that you are unable to debate the individual points without simply repeating your initial point. You simply expect your points to be accepted without question and the evidence for this is your repetition. So I’ll give it one last try on the most obvious point where you argue that black is white.....the concept of ‘evidence of interruption.’

ok

We have a killer, whoever he was, in Dutfield’s Yard with Elizabeth Stride - I assume that you accept this?

We know that the killer, whoever he was, cut Elizabeth Stride’s throat and killed her - yes?

Hypothetically then...if the killer was interrupted we cannot know at what exact point he might have been interrupted? - no issues?

So......if the killer cut Stride’s throat, and at that point before he got chance to raise her skirts for the act of mutilation, something or someone disturbed him, we are left with Stride on the ground with her throat cut and a man with a knife standing over her - ok?

The man then ducks into the shadows and Diemschutz enters on his cart.

And so the question now is this.......We now walk into the yard and look at the body and the location. We KNOW that the killer has been interrupted in this scenario so what evidence of that interruption would we EXPECT to see? What evidence HAD to have been there for an interruption? Not what would have been there if he’d been interrupted after he’d lifted her skirts but what evidence if he’d been interrupted at the point stated above?

You keep repeating that the absence of evidence for interruption is somehow proof that there could have been no interruption. So I’m asking you what evidence had to have been there?

Comments from others welcome of course.

[c.d.]

Comments from others welcome of course.

Hello Herlock,

Not a comment but a bit of advice. Just let it go. You can only lead the horse to water....

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Comments from others welcome of course.

Hello Herlock,

Not a comment but a bit of advice. Just let it go. You can only lead the horse to water....

c.d.

Sounds like good advice c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So......if the killer cut Stride’s throat, and at that point before he got chance to raise her skirts for the act of mutilation, something or someone disturbed him, we are left with Stride on the ground with her throat cut and a man with a knife standing over her - ok?

The man then ducks into the shadows and Diemschutz enters on his cart.

Where would this man have supposed Diemschitz would stop?

By a Juror: Was there room for you to have passed the body with your cart?
Diemschitz: Oh, yes. Mine is not a very wide cart; it only took up the centre of the passage. If my pony had not shied, perhaps I would not have noticed it at all.

He could not assume the cart would stop at the body, so even retreating to the rear of the yard would not have seemed adequately safe (especially if he saw other carts there).

Time to start climbing, and hope no one hears …

[caz]

There is evidence of a potential interruption with the pony and cart's arrival; Louis D's realisation that he nearly ran over Stride's dead or dying body; and the fact that the discovery must have been made within a few minutes of her throat being cut, which could easily have been done just as, or just after the killer heard the pony and cart approaching along Berner Street. In fact, if it was the sound itself that made the killer panic and make the fatal cut, that would deal neatly with the coincidental timing issue. No coincidence, just cause and effect. In this extremely plausible scenario, it wouldn't matter if he had planned to mutilate her or not. He'd still have needed to leave the body quick smart and make sure he couldn't be seen there until he could exit the yard safely.

The irony is that this scenario would have been even more likely if Louis had arrived around 12.40, five minutes or so after PC Smith had seen Stride alive, talking to a man who could well have been her killer. Once the copper had moved on, the killer may have thought he had a decent window to do the deed, but didn't allow for a pony and cart coming along when it did.

But it also works if the clock showed 1am when Louis passed it on his way to the yard, and was correct. The killer could have been in the yard with Stride, not ready or willing to launch an attack there. He could have been working on her, trying to persuade her to leave with him for a less risky location. Before he could get anywhere, the sound of the pony and cart would have ruined his plans, and he cut her throat in panic or frustration.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Where would this man have supposed Diemschitz would stop?

By a Juror: Was there room for you to have passed the body with your cart?
Diemschitz: Oh, yes. Mine is not a very wide cart; it only took up the centre of the passage. If my pony had not shied, perhaps I would not have noticed it at all.

He could not assume the cart would stop at the body, so even retreating to the rear of the yard would not have seemed adequately safe (especially if he saw other carts there).

Time to start climbing, and hope no one hears …

Why would you assume that the killer would make those kind of calculations on the spur of the moment? He hears the cart, ducks into the shadows then sees the cart pull into the yard. What else could he have done? If he’d seen other carts maybe he hid behind one?