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Stride..a victim?

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  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    We should at least look at some data before deciding when the escape occurred.
    For the killer to have temporarily hidden down past pony & cart when Louis went inside, we would need to consider the following.
    Firstly, Louis agrees with this possibility...

    By a Juror: It would [Would it] have been possible for any one to have escaped from the yard if he had been hiding there while you went into the club to inform the members?
    Louis: Yes, it would have been possible; but as soon as I informed the members every one went out, and I do not think it would have been possible for anyone to get out then.

    This seems to indicate that Louis does not support the 'mingling theory'.
    So what issues does a killer hiding further down the yard face?

    Sarah Diemschitz (stewardess of the club): Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard.

    I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.


    Baxter: If any one had run up the yard, you would have seen him?
    Louis: Yes; because it is dark just in the gateway; but further up the yard you could see anybody running or walking by the lights of the club.

    Presumably he means a now motionless killer must have retreated to the backyard before the cart pulls into the laneway, else he is contradicting his earlier statement.

    So the situation facing a hiding killer is; he must walk quietly past a partially open door, behind which are people who claimed not to hear a sound (Sarah & club servant). He then has to walk by the lights of the club - light which emanates from windows, behind which there may be people. He then has to wait for Louis to go inside, which he can only guess he might do (Louis could have just called for assistance). He then has to sneak back past windows and door and out onto the street, before anyone comes outside, and again without being seen or heard.

    So it is easy to imagine that he might have 'just escaped', but in practice it would have been quite difficult and highly risky.
    Because we can’t really get an accurate mental picture of the yard it’s difficult to judge but to be honest I don’t see much of an issue. We can’t assume that the killer would have had to retreat into the bottom of the yard to hide. A few few away and in such a position that he could see Diemschutz and the doorway would have been sufficient. As soon as he steps into the club the killer flees.

    ...

    This is interesting though.

    . The door had been, and still was, half open,
    As you know, any doubt that I might have about whether Stride was a victim or not is based on the location and the level of risk. The location now seems even more risky if the door was half open unless......we knew when it was opened. If Mrs D had opened it to let in a bit of air 10 minutes or so earlier could this have been what disturbed the killer?
    Regards

    Herlock




    “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
    As night descends upon this fabled street:
    A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
    The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
    Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
    And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
      There were also the guys in the little print shed who could have looked out or came out at any time. Risky indeed.

      It draws parallels with the other C5, particularly Chapman and Kelly, as the potential for the killer to become trapped was not just high it was reckless to the point of stupidity. Does that fall on the side of Stride being a victim of the same hand?

      The lack of escape route, no suspicions from witnesses, Schwartz and BS man not being noticed by anyone in the area (and let's face it, if Schwartz never came forward, we'd have no commotion in Berner St), Goldstein's walk through, it's understandable that theories involving the club are out there. It ties up lots of loose ends. If we remove the club conspiracies, what are we left with. A murderer who apparently can kill and slip away unseen, unheard, leaving no trace. Seems unlikely, but that's exactly what happened to the other victims.

      Maybe there were 4 or 5 killers. It unfortunate that they all had exceptional luck in getting away against the odds.

      That raises a question though. Is it more likely for one person to commit five murders undetected, or for five people to commit one each and get away with it?
      It might be worth mentioning Al that from inside a lit room (like the print shed) an unlit yard would have appeared an expanse of black. I know what you mean about loose ends though. It’s impossible to recreate with total confidence a series of events (or non-events) when there are witness discrepancies. One thing that I’d say that’s vital for us all to remember is the issue of timing and the fact that most people would have owned a watch or clock, so we should be wary of placing too much stock in quoted times unless we have good reason for doing it. Many witnesses were doing little more than guessing based on how long they had been somewhere or how long it was after they’d done something. I’ve got access to the time 24/7 but I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve thought to myself “it must be 10.30 by now,” and yet I’ve checked a clock and it’s only 10 past or it’s 20 to. So if we can misjudge times in 2020 how much easier in 1888? This is why I see no reason to assume a mystery when witnesses say that Diemschutz found the body earlier. They were simply mistaken IMO.

      Regards

      Herlock




      “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
      As night descends upon this fabled street:
      A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
      The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
      Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
      And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        Because we can’t really get an accurate mental picture of the yard it’s difficult to judge but to be honest I don’t see much of an issue. We can’t assume that the killer would have had to retreat into the bottom of the yard to hide. A few few away and in such a position that he could see Diemschutz and the doorway would have been sufficient. As soon as he steps into the club the killer flees.

        ...

        This is interesting though.



        As you know, any doubt that I might have about whether Stride was a victim or not is based on the location and the level of risk. The location now seems even more risky if the door was half open unless......we knew when it was opened. If Mrs D had opened it to let in a bit of air 10 minutes or so earlier could this have been what disturbed the killer?
        Just to add. If Morris Eagle entered via the side door it’s reasonable to assume that he’d have closed the door behind him. And so, we appear to have a door that was opened sometime between 12.35 and when Diemschutz returned. Doesn’t this raise the very real possibility that the killer might have been disturbed by Mrs D rather than Mr D? She’s warm in the kitchen so she opens the door to let in some air but she doesn’t step into the yard. The killer sees the door opened and the light from it. He assumes that someone is about to come through the door so he immediately leaves the yard. Possibly even as little as a couple of minutes before Diemschutz returns?

        Regards

        Herlock




        “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
        As night descends upon this fabled street:
        A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
        The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
        Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
        And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

        Comment


        • Pall Mall Gazette - 2nd October 1890

          The selfsame Sunday morn that heralded the discovery of the Mitre Square victim as the one that found another unfortunate lying in the gateway in Berner Street, St George's East, with her throat cut. It is true that since that time the gateway has been religiously closed after the last van has entered it. But then the vans are sometimes very late in arriving, and what is there to prevent a murderer decoying another victim there? When you push open the gate it is as dark as Erebus; when the gate is pushed back there is an effectual screen from any prying passer-by, although passers-by, who are constituted very largely of the foreigners who reside in the locality, are far too scared to ever peep inside that gate with its terrible history; and, finally, there is always singing or some other form of entertainment going on at the International Club next door to effectually drown a faint shriek

          But what about the policeman on the beat, you say? The police on that beat have got so tired of opening that gate and finding nothing there since the murder that they have long ago despaired of ever finding anything, and consequently pass it now with the most complete indifference.

          And, even should, by the most remote possibility, the murderer be disturbed by anybody opening the gate from the street entrance, he is by no means caught in a trap, for there are plenty of backyards that can be scaled, and a great many courts and passages, leading to Berner and other streets, to be easily reached. On the whole, then, that gateway in Berner Street would form a very safe place for any operations of the Ripper just now.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Azarna View Post
            Pall Mall Gazette - 2nd October 1890
            Great find! I'd not read that before.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Azarna View Post
              Pall Mall Gazette - 2nd October 1890
              Good find Azarna

              So it looks like it’s not impossible that the killer might have escaped from Dutfield’s Yard without using the gate. I wonder how this possibility will be explained away?
              Regards

              Herlock




              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
              As night descends upon this fabled street:
              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

              Comment


              • There were unused stables in the back of that yard, and the lock to the office door over the stables had been broken. Someone hiding? Someone who knew about that office there?
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • Or a killer who just escaped by jumping a wall?
                  Regards

                  Herlock




                  “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                  As night descends upon this fabled street:
                  A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                  The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                  Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                  And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

                    The evidence says that Smith went up Berner Street right after seeing Stride & companion, Herlock, and I think it tells us that he was about to enter Berner Street from Commercial Road when he saw people outside of Dutfield's Yard. So, to me it seems that, generally, Smith first went down Berner Street as far as Fairclough Street, then turned round and went up Berner Street again and at the top turned right on Commercial Road towards Batty Street to continue the 'exterior' of his beat. Since Berner Street was one of the 'interior streets' of his beat, according to his own testimony, it makes sense that he passed them in two directions, in this case first down and immediately afterwards back up again.
                    This begs the question as to why Smith only sees Stride and man with parcel, when returning up Berner street, but not when going down it.
                    They seem to have appeared on the scene very quickly. So from where did they come from to get where Smith saw them?...

                    ...a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

                    One possibility is from Dutfield's Yard, but then if they were leaving there, why then stop a short distance away, on the other side of the street?
                    Another option is that they followed Smith down Berner street, and he didn't notice they were some distance behind him. If this had been the case, then the distance they would have walked behind Smith cannot have been far, as Smith only has a little way to go to get to Fairclough street, and then turn around.
                    Another possibility is that the couple had just walked through Hampshire Court...

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                    Perhaps the intention was to go into the yard, but having seen the constable, they decided to wait until he had disappeared up Berner street.

                    The same question applies to Fanny Mortimer. Where had the couple gone when she goes to her doorstep?
                    They had been standing almost directly across from her place. They must have been speaking very quietly for Fanny not to have heard anything, if she were near the front of the house at the time.

                    So perhaps the couple had continued on down Berner street, past where William Marshall had seen them. But then why the pause?
                    Perhaps they had gone up Berner street, just far enough behind Smith that he doesn't notice them. But why turn around and walk back to where they had just come from?
                    Then there is the possibility they have gone through Hampshire Court, and thus to Batty street.
                    Once reaching Batty street, they would be pretty much right at the doorstep of #22 - Mrs Kuer's lodginghouse.

                    By the way, note how convenient Queen's Court would have been for someone wanting to return to Batty street via Christian street, thus keeping well away from Berner street.
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      Or a killer who just escaped by jumping a wall?
                      Which wall did he 'just jump'?

                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        Which wall did he 'just jump'?

                        Im not stating that it’s definitely what happened as I leave the certainty to others but it appears to have been a possibility. You can go with a 3D reconstruction (very good though it is) I’m just going on the words of someone who was there at the time and no doubt actually went into the yard.

                        he is by no means caught in a trap, for there are plenty of backyards that can be scaled, and a great many courts and passages, leading to Berner and other streets, to be easily reached
                        Regards

                        Herlock




                        “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                        As night descends upon this fabled street:
                        A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                        The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                        Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                        And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                          There were also the guys in the little print shed who could have looked out or came out at any time. Risky indeed.
                          And what if a little boy had come out out of one of the cottages to use the outside loos, noticed the body and alerted Mr Koster, who just happened to be walking by on the street at the time?

                          The lack of escape route, no suspicions from witnesses, Schwartz and BS man not being noticed by anyone in the area (and let's face it, if Schwartz never came forward, we'd have no commotion in Berner St), Goldstein's walk through, it's understandable that theories involving the club are out there. It ties up lots of loose ends. If we remove the club conspiracies, what are we left with. A murderer who apparently can kill and slip away unseen, unheard, leaving no trace. Seems unlikely, but that's exactly what happened to the other victims.
                          The contrast between a club conspiracy and the picture drawn of the murderer, is arguably a false dichotomy.
                          Der Arbeter Fraint gives us a good sense of how much ill-feeling and suspicion there was between the club and the police - Arbeter Fraint's Take - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

                          After a while the gate and the club were closed and the whole house was guarded. The members who remained inside the club couldn’t get out, since no one was permitted to go in or to go out.
                          [Regular] police and secret police arrived en masse. Everyone who had been in the club was examined, their hands and their clothing inspected, to see if there were blood stains. Everyone’s names and addresses were taken, and everyone was questioned as to whether they had seen anything unusual. During these examinations the police inspector received a telegram [saying] that in Meyter Square near Duke Street Oldgate, another woman had been murdered. This one had been cut into pieces just like the murdered Annie Chapman. Once again there was a commotion among the policemen and people began to run—out of the club, into the club, out into the yard, back from the yard. It went on like this until 4 [o’clock] in the morning. They searched everywhere; they looked for the murderer in all the neighbors’ houses, in the editor’s office, in every corner, under the tables, on the tables and in every pocket.
                          During the examination of the members of the club, the Police Sergeant wanted to show, through his coarse behavior, that he was also somebody, therefore one of the members took him over to Parsons’ picture, which was nailed to the wall and explained to him that this is was Parsons the anarchist, who had been murdered in Chicago and asked him if he wanted to see the others, [if so] he could go upstairs to see [them]. Everyone laughed, and the poor policeman bit his lips.
                          The headman of this group also wanted to create difficulties for the club. Pretending that he was in a hurry, he asked if he could buy several cigars. Dimshits responded with a question: didn’t he know that the law, which he protects, forbids strangers from selling cigars in a club. If he wanted [however] they could give him two cigars. The police big shot did not refuse and asked to be given [the cigars].


                          To suppose that there is no possibility of a conspiracy (aka 'plan of action') occurring, implies there would have been no threshold at which Wess and Mr & Mrs Diemschitz decided they would have to 'do something' to take the heat off the club. How can that be supposed with certainty?
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            And what if a little boy had come out out of one of the cottages to use the outside loos, noticed the body and alerted Mr Koster, who just happened to be walking by on the street at the time?



                            The contrast between a club conspiracy and the picture drawn of the murderer, is arguably a false dichotomy.
                            Der Arbeter Fraint gives us a good sense of how much ill-feeling and suspicion there was between the club and the police - Arbeter Fraint's Take - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

                            After a while the gate and the club were closed and the whole house was guarded. The members who remained inside the club couldn’t get out, since no one was permitted to go in or to go out.
                            [Regular] police and secret police arrived en masse. Everyone who had been in the club was examined, their hands and their clothing inspected, to see if there were blood stains. Everyone’s names and addresses were taken, and everyone was questioned as to whether they had seen anything unusual. During these examinations the police inspector received a telegram [saying] that in Meyter Square near Duke Street Oldgate, another woman had been murdered. This one had been cut into pieces just like the murdered Annie Chapman. Once again there was a commotion among the policemen and people began to run—out of the club, into the club, out into the yard, back from the yard. It went on like this until 4 [o’clock] in the morning. They searched everywhere; they looked for the murderer in all the neighbors’ houses, in the editor’s office, in every corner, under the tables, on the tables and in every pocket.
                            During the examination of the members of the club, the Police Sergeant wanted to show, through his coarse behavior, that he was also somebody, therefore one of the members took him over to Parsons’ picture, which was nailed to the wall and explained to him that this is was Parsons the anarchist, who had been murdered in Chicago and asked him if he wanted to see the others, [if so] he could go upstairs to see [them]. Everyone laughed, and the poor policeman bit his lips.
                            The headman of this group also wanted to create difficulties for the club. Pretending that he was in a hurry, he asked if he could buy several cigars. Dimshits responded with a question: didn’t he know that the law, which he protects, forbids strangers from selling cigars in a club. If he wanted [however] they could give him two cigars. The police big shot did not refuse and asked to be given [the cigars].


                            To suppose that there is no possibility of a conspiracy (aka 'plan of action') occurring, implies there would have been no threshold at which Wess and Mr & Mrs Diemschitz decided they would have to 'do something' to take the heat off the club. How can that be supposed with certainty?
                            The problem is, apart from there being no evidence of a conspiracy of course, is that it doesn’t even look like a conspiracy but the plan doesn’t achieve any aims. The body is still discovered in Dutfield’s Yard next to the club. The presence of BS Man (as per Schwartz who is suggested as part of the conspiracy) doesn’t ‘deflect’ from the club. He tries to pull her into the yard for a start so the fact that he was seen walking toward the yard achieves nothing. He wasn’t seen running away. The police checked the club so they obviously accepted the possibility that the killer had gone inside. Then we have the reliance on total luck. That no one saw Diemschutz arriving back earlier. That no one could testify that Schwartz couldn’t have been there. That no one in the club decided to talk possibly in the hope hope of a reward.

                            Thiis conspiracy is based on 3 very shaky props. Schwartz non-appearance at the Inquest and 3 witnesses with contradicting times and Fanny Mortimer not seeing Schwartz. As for Schwartz - there might have been a perfectly reasonable reason for his non-attendance but even if the police lost confidence in him it still doesn’t point to a conspiracy in any way. The three witnesses - were all relying on guesswork for timing and none of them had any reason to log the exact time. Spooner for example is very easily shown to have been mistaken. The others can very sensibly and calmly explained by error. And Mortimer - as shown by the EN report told varying versions. In the one version we have her spending no more than 10 minutes on her doorstep between 12.30 and 1.00. We also have to ask who was more likely to have been correct on timings; her or Smith. I’d suggest Smith. If correct then Fannywas inside when Schwartz passed.

                            This is how conspiracies are easily formed. Errors and understandable discrepancies. I see no reason to assume a conspiracy except for the desire for one to exist because it’s more ‘interesting’ than a ‘boring’ murder.
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                            As night descends upon this fabled street:
                            A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                            The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                            Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                            And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              It’s a good point but I’m guessing that others might say that the gap could be explained by being the time taken to come up with the plot?
                              What I struggle with is why anyone associated with the club would have conspired to protect someone they suspected of this horrific murder of a defenceless woman. It's not normal behaviour. And if the police had got wind of it, due to contradictory statements given by the various witnesses, then those involved would have put themselves and the club in far more jeopardy than if they'd given honest accounts and co-operated fully to help catch the bastard. Would they really have wanted him roaming free after that to attend future meetings, with their womenfolk present?

                              Love,

                              Caz
                              X
                              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by caz View Post

                                What I struggle with is why anyone associated with the club would have conspired to protect someone they suspected of this horrific murder of a defenceless woman. It's not normal behaviour. And if the police had got wind of it, due to contradictory statements given by the various witnesses, then those involved would have put themselves and the club in far more jeopardy than if they'd given honest accounts and co-operated fully to help catch the bastard. Would they really have wanted him roaming free after that to attend future meetings, with their womenfolk present?

                                Love,

                                Caz
                                X
                                Yes it would demonstrate a strange kind of group-callousness. Also you’d have though that if there’s one thing that even the most Laurel and Hardy level plotters would have tried to ensure was that everyone had their timings co-ordinated. They would have known that the police would have wanted to question everyone so why would they have been prepared for some members to have blabbed a time of discovery that they were trying to cover up? After all, there weren’t that many members left at the club. We have a lengthy list of things that just don’t make sense for any plot to have taken place. It’s a poorly thought out plot that achieved nothing and is based around 4 shaky/unreliable witnesses for its foundation.
                                Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 12-15-2020, 04:31 PM.
                                Regards

                                Herlock




                                “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                                As night descends upon this fabled street:
                                A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                                The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                                Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                                And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                                Comment

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