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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Hi Caz,

    If Schwartz had felt threatened by his encounter with BS Man and Pipeman might he not just have layed low at a friend's house or somewhere out of town until it all died down?
    If Schwartz, wife, and people at friend's house, kept Israel out of sight 'until it all died down', we would have a conspiracy.

    Would suggesting this possibility therefore make you a Conspiracy Theorist?
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      But she had something to say about timings.

      William West contributed nothing to do with how she died but he was called. Likewise Eagle. And Spooner. And Tanner. And Lane. And Preston....all called.
      If Wess establishes a virtually empty street how many witnesses do we need in corroboration? If the reason Diemshutz was allowed to lay down his version unchallenged is that they believed him, then all that is needed established is who else was around before Louis. Morris and Lave do that. Fanny would just be another witness who says she saw no-one. Even Goldstein isnt really necessary, they knew before the Inquest that Liz saw someone pass the gates, not enter or leave through them.

      I for one think that Louis lied, and maybe to quell any possible persecution retaliation from locals, they probably knew that and put him out there anyway. I also believe they really didnt find any evidence that Liz was on the street with 3 other people in a very brief interlude of heightened street activity around 12:45. The way its laid out for the public is that Wess establishes background for the site and a preliminary view. The intermediary view is given by Lave and Eagle...nothing going on, no-one around,...then Louis arrives and all hell breaks loose. Wess, Eagle, then Louis.

      I believe the reality was that Louis arrived much earlier than he said he did, that Fanny was in one of her "off" moments, and that the bulk of what the majority of witnesses from the scene of the crime about times and actions is essentially truthful. I believe Issac K was sent out by himself around 12:40-45, because he says he was. I believe 3 witnesses who say they were by the body at around the same time as Issac K says he was. I think the reason Louis gave his story because the reality was he didnt have a formulated response to this kind of crisis, and he needed some time to think. He left for help after 1, sure, the rest of that falls into place with the comings of the officials and their times,.. but he waited for perhaps 15-20 minutes before doing it. Its why Eagle cannot outright state that Liz wasnt there when he arrived. He knew better, and lots of witnesses did too. "Couldnt be sure". Take a look at how wide that passageway was and when he says he stayed close to the wall when he went in...is it even possible that he could miss discovering LIz there? I dont see it.

      Would Louis alter some details if it allowed the Club to dodge suspicions and to keep quiet the delay in his personally acting in response to the crime? I believe so. Would a theatrical friend of the club and Wess's help out by making a statement claiming she was seen being attacked off the property....sure. Why not. Could it hurt inserting a suggestion that the assailant was a anti-Semite? Might help actually. Maybe looked like he was trying to set them up by killing there.

      The real bottom line on this issue is this......there are groups of witnesses that match times in their statements, there is another group that do not, nor do they corroborate each others statements, you have to choose. There will be no great reveal someday on this crime, you get what you got. You have to stand by one group or the other, and use evidence to make a case. No imagined interruptions unless warranted by the evidence, and thats not the lack of any.
      Last edited by Michael W Richards; 12-03-2020, 11:56 AM.
      Michael Richards

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
        Hi Herlock,

        I agree that, as far as the math goes, Smith was correct, as he knew his round would take him 25 to 30 minutes from start to finish. So, if he was close to the club at 12:30-12:35, then he must have been at the top of Berner Street some 25 minutes later. Or the other way around, if he was at the top of Berner Street around 1 am, then he must have been passing the yard at 12:30 to 12:35.
        Frank and some others already know this, but just in case it hasn't sunk in; if it is believed that Smith last went through Berner street at 12:30-12:35, he must reach the yard at close to 1am, and no more than a few minutes past - because his beat takes 25-30 minutes - and therefore Diemschitz cannot possibly have seen the clock at the top of the street saying 1:00.

        Furthermore, if both Smith and Diemschitz had a visual line to that clock, and Smith's times are believed, then Diemschitz was either badly mistaken, or lying.

        Then one has to consider that guys like Kozebrodsky and Heshburg are claiming to get to the yard at around 12:40 or very soon after 12:45.
        Both estimates, yes, but harder to shake off if Diemschitz 1am claim is not believed.

        But the thing is - for me at least - that if you start counting back from Blackwell's timing (who checked his watch when he arrived in the yard), then you end up with Smith arriving at the crime scene close to 1:10 am. Having him arrive there at 1:02-1:03, to me, seems like a rather long stretch. And besides, as I've said before, if Smith really was at the top of Berner Street at around 1 a.m., then why didn't Eagle find him instead of Lamb and why didn't he see PC 426 H going for Dr. Blackwell, whose house was at the top of Batty Street?
        Possibly because the timings are a couple of minutes apart - either side of 1am.

        Between about 1 am and 1:16, when Blackwell arrives at the scene:
        - Diemshutz discovers the body
        - Diemshutz & Kozebrodski/Isaacs go searching for a PC running along Fairclough Street
        - Diemshutz returns to the yard with Spooner
        - Eagle goes searching for a PC in the direction of Commercial Street and finds PC Henry Lamb & PC 426 H
        - The PC's arrive at the crime scene after Diemshutz & Spooner arrive
        - Lamb after seeing the severity of the situations send PC 426 H to get the doctor and Eagle to get the Inspector at the Leman Street station
        - Lamb then blows his whistle for additional assistance
        - PC 12 H, Albert Collins, responds to the whistle
        - Then Smith arrives and sees 2 constables (Lamb & Collins)
        - After what seems to be a very short while Smith is sent for the ambulance
        - As he leaves the scene, Edward Johnson, Blackwell's assistant, arrives with PC 426 H at the yard

        So maybe Blackwell's watch was some 6 or 7 minutes ahead of the clock in Commercial Road, but that would push back the discovery of the body by some 6 or 7 minutes, too.

        All the best,
        Frank
        Spooner meets Mr Harris on his way to the yard, the latter having gone outside after hearing a police whistle.
        Spooner observes the deceased and then waits for about 5 minutes before Lamb arrives with 426H.
        This is highly anomalous.

        I believe 426H is William Ayliffe.

        We have Eagle's arrival time at the station. Irish Times, Oct 1:

        The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • .
          Frank and some others already know this, but just in case it hasn't sunk in; if it is believed that Smith last went through Berner street at 12:30-12:35, he must reach the yard at close to 1am, and no more than a few minutes past - because his beat takes 25-30 minutes - and therefore Diemschitz cannot possibly have seen the clock at the top of the street saying 1:00
          1. If Smith passed the clock at just after 1.00, as you've accepted above, and Diemschutz passed it at 1.00 where is the issue?

          2. Despite the fact that routes were regulated what's to say that Smith didn't have to deal with some kind of incident on his route which slightly delayed his return to Berner Street?
          Regards

          Herlock




          “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
          As night descends upon this fabled street:
          A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
          The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
          Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
          And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

            Frank and some others already know this, but just in case it hasn't sunk in; if it is believed that Smith last went through Berner street at 12:30-12:35, he must reach the yard at close to 1am, and no more than a few minutes past - because his beat takes 25-30 minutes - and therefore Diemschitz cannot possibly have seen the clock at the top of the street saying 1:00.
            PC Smith tells us exactly where he was at 1:00 am.

            I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.
            Times, 6 Oct.


            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

              If Wess establishes a virtually empty street how many witnesses do we need in corroboration? If the reason Diemshutz was allowed to lay down his version unchallenged is that they believed him, then all that is needed established is who else was around before Louis. Morris and Lave do that. Fanny would just be another witness who says she saw no-one. Even Goldstein isnt really necessary, they knew before the Inquest that Liz saw someone pass the gates, not enter or leave through them.

              I for one think that Louis lied, and maybe to quell any possible persecution retaliation from locals, they probably knew that and put him out there anyway. I also believe they really didnt find any evidence that Liz was on the street with 3 other people in a very brief interlude of heightened street activity around 12:45. The way its laid out for the public is that Wess establishes background for the site and a preliminary view. The intermediary view is given by Lave and Eagle...nothing going on, no-one around,...then Louis arrives and all hell breaks loose. Wess, Eagle, then Louis.

              I believe the reality was that Louis arrived much earlier than he said he did, that Fanny was in one of her "off" moments, and that the bulk of what the majority of witnesses from the scene of the crime about times and actions is essentially truthful. I believe Issac K was sent out by himself around 12:40-45, because he says he was. I believe 3 witnesses who say they were by the body at around the same time as Issac K says he was. I think the reason Louis gave his story because the reality was he didnt have a formulated response to this kind of crisis, and he needed some time to think. He left for help after 1, sure, the rest of that falls into place with the comings of the officials and their times,.. but he waited for perhaps 15-20 minutes before doing it. Its why Eagle cannot outright state that Liz wasnt there when he arrived. He knew better, and lots of witnesses did too. "Couldnt be sure". Take a look at how wide that passageway was and when he says he stayed close to the wall when he went in...is it even possible that he could miss discovering LIz there? I dont see it.

              Would Louis alter some details if it allowed the Club to dodge suspicions and to keep quiet the delay in his personally acting in response to the crime? I believe so. Would a theatrical friend of the club and Wess's help out by making a statement claiming she was seen being attacked off the property....sure. Why not. Could it hurt inserting a suggestion that the assailant was a anti-Semite? Might help actually. Maybe looked like he was trying to set them up by killing there.

              The real bottom line on this issue is this......there are groups of witnesses that match times in their statements, there is another group that do not, nor do they corroborate each others statements, you have to choose. There will be no great reveal someday on this crime, you get what you got. You have to stand by one group or the other, and use evidence to make a case. No imagined interruptions unless warranted by the evidence, and thats not the lack of any.
              The interruption isn't 'imagined' it's absolutely and entirely plausible. There's not a single doubt that this could have occurred. It simply cannot be dismissed. Disputed certainly but dismissed no. Dismissing it is impossible.

              ​​​​​​Equally you're theory isn't impossible. It cannot categorically be dismissed. You may indeed be correct that the killer was a club member; who knows? I just can't understand why you appear to be so certain?

              Regards

              Herlock




              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
              As night descends upon this fabled street:
              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                The interruption isn't 'imagined' it's absolutely and entirely plausible. There's not a single doubt that this could have occurred. It simply cannot be dismissed. Disputed certainly but dismissed no. Dismissing it is impossible.

                ​​​​​​Equally you're theory isn't impossible. It cannot categorically be dismissed. You may indeed be correct that the killer was a club member; who knows? I just can't understand why you appear to be so certain?
                I have a high degree of confidence in my perspective based on many years dealing with all the various issues with these statements and times numerous times Herlock. If you wish to offer an opinion that an interruption occurred, or that the killer left via the gates, Id expect some evidence to support that. The list of things "that could have" happened is vast, are you really that unclear about what happened there that youre willing to let a myriad of things which have left no trace of evidence in as possibles?

                The real reason people want to imagine something here is because they cant accept that someone other than a serial mutilator killed Liz, and the lack of any intention evident for that the mutilation to have been desired necessitates an interruption as an explanation.
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                  PC Smith tells us exactly where he was at 1:00 am.

                  I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.
                  Times, 6 Oct.
                  If he were at the top of Berner street when the clock said 1, what time would it be when he arrives at Dutfield's Yard, if he walks at beat pace?

                  Would it take about 2 minutes? So if the clock had been about to tick over to 1:01, he arrives at 1:03.
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • . If you wish to offer an opinion that an interruption occurred, or that the killer left via the gates, Id expect some evidence to support that
                    But again you're asking for impossible evidence and when it's not forthcoming you're citing it as proof that no interruption could have taken place.

                    If the killer was interrupted just after or just as Stride's throat was cut then there would be no evidence of this interruption apart from the lack of mutilation of course.

                    And if the killer left the gate unseen or unnoticed that's also not proof that it didn't happen. It's just proof that no one saw the person escaping. And how long would someone escaping have been in the street? A very few seconds?

                    So I can't see anything that precludes interruption or the killer making a getaway unseen or unnoticed.

                    ...

                    So we are left with a choice.

                    1) A lying Schwartz and Diemschutz (both out in the open where the might have been seen and contradicted) and a conflicting conspiracy of club members. (If they'd wanted to protect the club's reputation why didn't they just chuck Liz's body onto Diemschutz cart, cover it with tarpaulin, then dump her a few streets away?)

                    Or
                    2) The killer was interrupted then fled unseen when Diemschutz went into the club. Then another murder (with mutilations) occurred around 50 minutes later and 15 minutes walk away.

                    Number 2 is by far the likeliest imo.
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                    As night descends upon this fabled street:
                    A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                    The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                    Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                    And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                      At the the Inquest Smith said " At 1 o clock I went to Berner Street in my ordinary round." This is a strange way of putting it. It sounds like he's saying - 'I was somewhere else then at 1.00 I went to Berner Street.'
                      You've chosen the worst representation of Smith's inquest testimony here, Herlock! If you'd have read the Daily News of 6 October or the Daily Telegraph of the same date, you'd have understood it the way Joshua explained it in post #836.

                      Daily News:
                      "My beat takes between 25 minutes and half an hour to patrol.
                      I was in Berner street about 12.35 and got back there about one o'clock. I was not called there but went in my ordinary round. I saw the disturbance outside the gates of No 40. I heard no cries of "Police.""

                      Daily Telegraph:
                      "My beat was past Berner-street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police.""

                      All the best,
                      Frank
                      "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                      Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                        Furthermore, if both Smith and Diemschitz had a visual line to that clock, and Smith's times are believed, then Diemschitz was either badly mistaken, or lying.
                        Or the clock stood still at 1:00, NBFN.

                        Possibly because the timings are a couple of minutes apart - either side of 1am.
                        I think that was the case rather than anything else.


                        Spooner meets Mr Harris on his way to the yard, the latter having gone outside after hearing a police whistle.
                        This is an odd one, as Lamb only blew his whistle after he had arrived in the yard and had sent PC 426H for the doctor and Eagle for the inspector and Spooner arrived in the yard before Lamb.

                        Spooner observes the deceased and then waits for about 5 minutes before Lamb arrives with 426H.
                        Diemshutz, on the other hand, has Lamb & PC 426H arrive immediately after Spooner had lifted Stride's chin.

                        We have Eagle's arrival time at the station. Irish Times, Oct 1:

                        The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.
                        Thanks, NBFN, I hadn't seen this one, yet.

                        "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                        Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          2) The killer was interrupted then fled unseen when Diemschutz went into the club. Then another murder (with mutilations) occurred around 50 minutes later and 15 minutes walk away.

                          Number 2 is by far the likeliest imo.
                          So, if Louis isnt lying then the killer flees after 1am? We dont see Liz from 12:35 on, so where is she and what is she doing? Since Liz may have been cut as early as 12:45-46, why is her killer fleeing after 1am, and why isnt she mutilated? Or even moved since her throat cut? Whats he doing standing there for perhaps 15minutes?

                          Ill make this easy, Louis arrives around 12:40, Lave is there at the gates, Louis calls for help upstairs, 3 members come down, 1 is Issac K, Louis or someone sends him out for help, 2 other Jews go out for help and meet Spooner on the way back. Eagle arrives back at the club. Eagle leaves for help after 1, so does Louis with someone who likely has a surname of Issacs.

                          You dont need imagined interruptions or timings that explain why Fanny, who is at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:30 until 1, just happens to miss seeing 3 men on the street and 1 assaulting Liz or anyone else leaving via the gates.

                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                            So, if Louis isnt lying then the killer flees after 1am? We dont see Liz from 12:35 on, so where is she and what is she doing? Since Liz may have been cut as early as 12:45-46, why is her killer fleeing after 1am, and why isnt she mutilated? Or even moved since her throat cut? Whats he doing standing there for perhaps 15minutes?

                            Ill make this easy, Louis arrives around 12:40, Lave is there at the gates, Louis calls for help upstairs, 3 members come down, 1 is Issac K, Louis or someone sends him out for help, 2 other Jews go out for help and meet Spooner on the way back. Eagle arrives back at the club. Eagle leaves for help after 1, so does Louis with someone who likely has a surname of Issacs.

                            You dont need imagined interruptions or timings that explain why Fanny, who is at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:30 until 1, just happens to miss seeing 3 men on the street and 1 assaulting Liz or anyone else leaving via the gates.
                            Looks like she 'just happens' to have missed Diemschutz arriving at 12.40 as well according to the above version?
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                            As night descends upon this fabled street:
                            A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                            The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                            Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                            And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                            Comment


                            • . We dont see Liz from 12:35 on,
                              Schwartz said that he did. And even if he just stupidly made this up then the failure of anyone to locate Liz doesn't mean that she was already dead.
                              Regards

                              Herlock




                              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                              As night descends upon this fabled street:
                              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                                Schwartz said that he did. And even if he just stupidly made this up then the failure of anyone to locate Liz doesn't mean that she was already dead.
                                No, it doesnt. But Blackwells estimate includes the period from 12:46 until 12:56 as the earliest cut window. All that happens after 12:35 is no-one legitimate sees Liz alive and well again except for her killer. So, if she is off the street, and so is he, where do you suppose they are? And where would THE most probable place be for him to have been prior to that? Its the passageway for both, out of sight and on the spot where she will die.
                                Last edited by Michael W Richards; 12-03-2020, 06:31 PM.
                                Michael Richards

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