Stride..a victim?

[Herlock Sholmes]

So if we're talking about 'interrupted at the very moment he cuts her throat' - then you're probably right.

What I meant was that an interruption could conceivably occur at any point in the Ripper's 'work', and therefore the chances of it occurring right when it did, are low.
In other words, if she looks exactly like she would had the killer had no intention of going on with it, we couldn't tell what is the case, but what are the chances of each possibility?

Surely the chances of the killer being interrupted just as, or immediately after, he’d cut her throat are exactly the same as if he’d been interrupted at any other point in the operation? If Diemschutz had been 5 seconds earlier Stride might have ended up dying of old age.

The issue has been that Michael says that there was no evidence of the killer being interrupted or that we should work from that interruption. Which is true of course. But the point he’s been trying to make is that we should take from this that there was no interruption. My point is that in this case this doesn’t lessen or even preclude the possibility of interruption because we couldn’t expect to see evidence. If Diemschutz had arrived 2 or 3 seconds later and interrupted the killer then we might have seen Stride’s skirt lifted perhaps but we can’t say for certain when that interruption took place.

To me this is glaringly obvious and I’m sure that everyone can see this. I’m not saying that this is definitely what happened because the possibility exists that she wasn’t killed by the ripper but I’m saying that we cannot expect to have seen evidence of interruption therefore the lack of evidence is not evidence against the possibility of the killer being interrupted.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Smith was correct, as far as I can tell.
However, if 'went to' means 'proceeded to' then he gets to the top of Berner a little after 1am rather than right on 1, and we have to allow for that.
This interpretation also hints there was a clock at the corner of Gower's Walk and Commercial Road - that being the reason Smith knows he went to Berner street at 1am.

There is another reason for supposing Smith gets to the top of Berner a little later than 1...

I did not notice any disturbance, and heard no cries of "Police."

So he must have been a significant distance from Berner street when this occurred.

If Smith passes up Berner street to Comm. Rd at 12:35 (as commonly supposed), then Fanny cannot get to her doorstep at the same time, for an obvious reason - she would see Stride and parcel man standing a few meters away on the other side of the street! So there must be a delay after Smith goes by.
In my 'tweaked' version, Smith exits Berner at about 12:39, and Fanny goes outside at about 12:40.
Even with that short delay, the pair seen by Smith appear to have gone out of sight very quickly, and he did not see them on the southern-leg - so they arrived at the point he sees them at when he is reaching Fairclough street. See how close that is?



Is there anything in Smith's testimony to indicate that his last round before going to the yard, was outside the normal parameters?

You probably saw this one coming but...the main issue with your scenario is that it presumes that Schwartz was never in Berner Street or else Fanny would obviously have seen the incident. What’s the objection to Smith passing at, say, 12.33? The young couple move on just after he passes then Fanny then comes onto her doorstep for 10 minutes from 12.34 to 12.44 then goes back inside. Then Schwartz passes at 12.45?

......

As far as I know Smith doesn’t mention having to deal with any incidents but he wasn’t having to justify the time of his arrival so he might not have felt the need to have mentioned it? You’re right that we can’t assume it though.

.......

As I’ve said before I’m hopeless with maps and remembering directions and where things are in relation to other things so....are we saying that Smith walked from the Fairclough Street end up to Commercial Road? If so then I’ve been suggesting something that’s incorrect as i’ve been assuming that he came from Commercial Road toward Fairclough and that he’d have walked past the same clock that Diemschutz saw?

[FrankO]

The evidence says that Smith went up Berner Street right after seeing Stride & companion, Herlock, and I think it tells us that he was about to enter Berner Street from Commercial Road when he saw people outside of Dutfield's Yard. So, to me it seems that, generally, Smith first went down Berner Street as far as Fairclough Street, then turned round and went up Berner Street again and at the top turned right on Commercial Road towards Batty Street to continue the 'exterior' of his beat. Since Berner Street was one of the 'interior streets' of his beat, according to his own testimony, it makes sense that he passed them in two directions, in this case first down and immediately afterwards back up again.

This is how I read Smith's testimony regarding his beat (Times, 6 October):

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Surely the chances of the killer being interrupted just as, or immediately after, he’d cut her throat are exactly the same as if he’d been interrupted at any other point in the operation? If Diemschutz had been 5 seconds earlier Stride might have ended up dying of old age.

The issue has been that Michael says that there was no evidence of the killer being interrupted or that we should work from that interruption. Which is true of course. But the point he’s been trying to make is that we should take from this that there was no interruption. My point is that in this case this doesn’t lessen or even preclude the possibility of interruption because we couldn’t expect to see evidence. If Diemschutz had arrived 2 or 3 seconds later and interrupted the killer then we might have seen Stride’s skirt lifted perhaps but we can’t say for certain when that interruption took place.

To me this is glaringly obvious and I’m sure that everyone can see this. I’m not saying that this is definitely what happened because the possibility exists that she wasn’t killed by the ripper but I’m saying that we cannot expect to have seen evidence of interruption therefore the lack of evidence is not evidence against the possibility of the killer being interrupted.

If the Ripper cuts throats with the victim in a sitting position - which has been argued for, because it helps him go almost right around the neck - what position would she end up in if he leaves the scene right at that point?
Would she end up on he left side, looking like she had been 'lain gently down'?

Also, beyond the interruption, we have to ask; where would we expect the Ripper to go? MA, Oct 3:

The police have arrived at the conclusion that on the Sunday morning when the murder of "Long Liz" was committed the perpetrator of the deed must have had a very narrow escape from capture. It is their belief, and also that of many members of the International Club, that when the steward of the club, Mr. Diemschitz, entered the yard in his trap at one o'clock in the morning the miscreant was about to carry out the mutilation of his victim. There is little doubt that the unexpected entry of the vehicle disturbed him in his diabolical work, and compelled him to retire to another part of the yard. The explanation offered as to his escape is that when the alarm was raised and the members of the club rushed pell-mell downstairs into the yard, he mingled amongst them, and succeeded in effecting his escape before the police appeared upon the scene.

Can you go for that?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You probably saw this one coming but...the main issue with your scenario is that it presumes that Schwartz was never in Berner Street or else Fanny would obviously have seen the incident. What’s the objection to Smith passing at, say, 12.33? The young couple move on just after he passes then Fanny then comes onto her doorstep for 10 minutes from 12.34 to 12.44 then goes back inside. Then Schwartz passes at 12.45?

The problem is that he then returns to the top of Berner street at about 12:58, and two constables are already in the yard.
Diemschitz is still a few minutes away, by his timing.

As I’ve said before I’m hopeless with maps and remembering directions and where things are in relation to other things so....are we saying that Smith walked from the Fairclough Street end up to Commercial Road? If so then I’ve been suggesting something that’s incorrect as i’ve been assuming that he came from Commercial Road toward Fairclough and that he’d have walked past the same clock that Diemschutz saw?

He walks down and up the street - both, in other words.
Use Frank's map or this one...



Blue is Dutfield's Yard.
Dr Blackwell and Ed Johnston live at the top of Batty street.
The Beehive publichouse is on the corner of Fairclough and Christian streets.

[DJA]

Schrödinger's cat - Wikipedia

[Herlock Sholmes]

The evidence says that Smith went up Berner Street right after seeing Stride & companion, Herlock, and I think it tells us that he was about to enter Berner Street from Commercial Road when he saw people outside of Dutfield's Yard. So, to me it seems that, generally, Smith first went down Berner Street as far as Fairclough Street, then turned round and went up Berner Street again and at the top turned right on Commercial Road towards Batty Street to continue the 'exterior' of his beat. Since Berner Street was one of the 'interior streets' of his beat, according to his own testimony, it makes sense that he passed them in two directions, in this case first down and immediately afterwards back up again.

This is how I read Smith's testimony regarding his beat (Times, 6 October):

Thanks Frank. So he probably did pass the clock.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Perhaps the first horse and cart noises were drowned out by the bouzouki music coming from the club?

To be fair to MWR, MA, Oct 1:

[The club] was holding revelry at the very time the crime was discovered, and only twenty minutes before members of the club had come out to get a breath of fresh air and had seen nothing unusual. The yard was stocked with costermongers' barrows, and one o'clock is not late for those articles to be trundled home.

So Lave had company outside, and there were several costermonger barrows in the yard, and these did sometimes return late at night.

[Azarna]

To be fair to MWR, MA, Oct 1:

[The club] was holding revelry at the very time the crime was discovered, and only twenty minutes before members of the club had come out to get a breath of fresh air and had seen nothing unusual. The yard was stocked with costermongers' barrows, and one o'clock is not late for those articles to be trundled home.

So Lave had company outside, and there were several costermonger barrows in the yard, and these did sometimes return late at night.

Ah, now this is interesting.
I guess I have always pictured it as being a pretty empty yard.
But if it had some costermonger barrows ("stocked" sounds like quite a few to me) around it this makes the following scenario a little more likely, yes?

The murderer has grabbed Liz and cut her throat, when Diemschutz and his pony arrive. The murderer hears them as they slow down outside the gate and start to turn in, and drops Liz to hide amongst the costermonger barrows.

Whilst Diemschultz is raising the alarm at the club, the murderer slips out and away.

I am not sure whether he could have pulled off mingling with the club goers, but if he was hidden behind a barrow near the gate, and they club goers were all distracted by the body, maybe his escape from the scene is more plausible than I had originally been thinking it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah, now this is interesting.
I guess I have always pictured it as being a pretty empty yard.
But if it had some costermonger barrows ("stocked" sounds like quite a few to me) around it this makes the following scenario a little more likely, yes?

The murderer has grabbed Liz and cut her throat, when Diemschutz and his pony arrive. The murderer hears them as they slow down outside the gate and start to turn in, and drops Liz to hide amongst the costermonger barrows.

Whilst Diemschultz is raising the alarm at the club, the murderer slips out and away.

I am not sure whether he could have pulled off mingling with the club goers, but if he was hidden behind a barrow near the gate, and they club goers were all distracted by the body, maybe his escape from the scene is more plausible than I had originally been thinking it.

He could have just escaped the second that Diemschutz went inside. The yard would have been totally empty (apart from the body of course)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ah, now this is interesting.
I guess I have always pictured it as being a pretty empty yard.
But if it had some costermonger barrows ("stocked" sounds like quite a few to me) around it this makes the following scenario a little more likely, yes?

DT: …that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire.

Packer: "I had been out with my barrow most of the day, but hadn't done much business; and as the night came on wet I went home and took the place of the 'missus' in the shop here."

Where do you suppose Packer's barrow is stored when not in use?

The murderer has grabbed Liz and cut her throat, when Diemschutz and his pony arrive. The murderer hears them as they slow down outside the gate and start to turn in, and drops Liz to hide amongst the costermonger barrows.

Whilst Diemschultz is raising the alarm at the club, the murderer slips out and away.

He would have to go past a partly open door and a few windows, twice, and hope that he can sneak away before Louis and co. make it outside.

I am not sure whether he could have pulled off mingling with the club goers, but if he was hidden behind a barrow near the gate, and they club goers were all distracted by the body, maybe his escape from the scene is more plausible than I had originally been thinking it.

By 'barrow near the gate', you mean Louis' cart?
So from the PoV of someone near the victim, behind the cart there is a pony.

[Herlock Sholmes]

DT: …that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire.

Packer: "I had been out with my barrow most of the day, but hadn't done much business; and as the night came on wet I went home and took the place of the 'missus' in the shop here."

Where do you suppose Packer's barrow is stored when not in use?

Do we know?

He would have to go past a partly open door and a few windows, twice, and hope that he can sneak away before Louis and co. make it outside.

There was no partially open door. You’re making an assumption for which there’s no evidence. Windows? It’s impossible to walk along any street without passing windows.

‘Before Louis and co. make it outside?’ He sees Louis from where he’s hiding and scarpers the second that Louis goes inside.

By 'barrow near the gate', you mean Louis' cart?
So from the PoV of someone near the victim, behind the cart there is a pony.

Pony’s usually pull rather than push so I’d suggest that it was in front of the cart Sorry I couldn’t resist it.

Its annoying that when you respond within a quote you’re not allowed to ‘post’ until you type something after the quote!

[Azarna]

He could have just escaped the second that Diemschutz went inside. The yard would have been totally empty (apart from the body of course)

An excellent point. If there was any sneaking out of the yard, this does sound like the safest time to do it - plus I would assume he wanted to get away jolly fast.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He could have just escaped the second that Diemschutz went inside. The yard would have been totally empty (apart from the body of course)

We should at least look at some data before deciding when the escape occurred.
For the killer to have temporarily hidden down past pony & cart when Louis went inside, we would need to consider the following.
Firstly, Louis agrees with this possibility...

By a Juror: It would [Would it] have been possible for any one to have escaped from the yard if he had been hiding there while you went into the club to inform the members?
Louis: Yes, it would have been possible; but as soon as I informed the members every one went out, and I do not think it would have been possible for anyone to get out then.

This seems to indicate that Louis does not support the 'mingling theory'.
So what issues does a killer hiding further down the yard face?

Sarah Diemschitz (stewardess of the club): Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard.
…
I am positive I did not hear any screams or sound of any kind. Even the singing on the floor above would not have prevented me from hearing them, had there been any. In the yard itself all was as silent as the grave.

Baxter: If any one had run up the yard, you would have seen him?
Louis: Yes; because it is dark just in the gateway; but further up the yard you could see anybody running or walking by the lights of the club.

Presumably he means a now motionless killer must have retreated to the backyard before the cart pulls into the laneway, else he is contradicting his earlier statement.

So the situation facing a hiding killer is; he must walk quietly past a partially open door, behind which are people who claimed not to hear a sound (Sarah & club servant). He then has to walk by the lights of the club - light which emanates from windows, behind which there may be people. He then has to wait for Louis to go inside, which he can only guess he might do (Louis could have just called for assistance). He then has to sneak back past windows and door and out onto the street, before anyone comes outside, and again without being seen or heard.

So it is easy to imagine that he might have 'just escaped', but in practice it would have been quite difficult and highly risky.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

There were also the guys in the little print shed who could have looked out or came out at any time. Risky indeed.

It draws parallels with the other C5, particularly Chapman and Kelly, as the potential for the killer to become trapped was not just high it was reckless to the point of stupidity. Does that fall on the side of Stride being a victim of the same hand?

The lack of escape route, no suspicions from witnesses, Schwartz and BS man not being noticed by anyone in the area (and let's face it, if Schwartz never came forward, we'd have no commotion in Berner St), Goldstein's walk through, it's understandable that theories involving the club are out there. It ties up lots of loose ends. If we remove the club conspiracies, what are we left with. A murderer who apparently can kill and slip away unseen, unheard, leaving no trace. Seems unlikely, but that's exactly what happened to the other victims.

Maybe there were 4 or 5 killers. It unfortunate that they all had exceptional luck in getting away against the odds.

That raises a question though. Is it more likely for one person to commit five murders undetected, or for five people to commit one each and get away with it?