Stride..a victim?

[Herlock Sholmes]

According to what she said to an Evening News reporter she spent 10 minutes out of 30 on her doorstep.

[Joshua Rogan]

She did say on and off didnt she?

If she does, could you point out where please?

[Herlock Sholmes]

She did say on and off didnt she? I am well prepared to accept that she was inside when Louis actually arrives, but not that plus Israel plus BSM plus Liz back out on the street again, plus Pipeman....that she missed that arrival AND all those people coming from nowhere to participate in that supposed event Israel, the theatrically dressed friend of Wess's, claims he saw, it just isnt reasonable. She said "nearly the whole time", that means most of that half hour.

I'll go there again Michael and I'll keep going there because I'm afraid that you keep ignoring this possibility. Fanny gave a more detailed explanation of what she did on that night so why do you only repeat the 'nearly whole time' one?

Anyway, the whole Schwartz, BS Man, Pipeman incident might have taken little more than 30 seconds and it was hardly a marching band going past.

[Michael W Richards]

Looks like she 'just happens' to have missed Diemschutz arriving at 12.40 as well according to the above version?

She did say on and off didnt she? I am well prepared to accept that she was inside when Louis actually arrives, but not that plus Israel plus BSM plus Liz back out on the street again, plus Pipeman....that she missed that arrival AND all those people coming from nowhere to participate in that supposed event Israel, the theatrically dressed friend of Wess's, claims he saw, it just isnt reasonable. She said "nearly the whole time", that means most of that half hour.

[Michael W Richards]

Schwartz said that he did. And even if he just stupidly made this up then the failure of anyone to locate Liz doesn't mean that she was already dead.

No, it doesnt. But Blackwells estimate includes the period from 12:46 until 12:56 as the earliest cut window. All that happens after 12:35 is no-one legitimate sees Liz alive and well again except for her killer. So, if she is off the street, and so is he, where do you suppose they are? And where would THE most probable place be for him to have been prior to that? Its the passageway for both, out of sight and on the spot where she will die.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. We dont see Liz from 12:35 on,

Schwartz said that he did. And even if he just stupidly made this up then the failure of anyone to locate Liz doesn't mean that she was already dead.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So, if Louis isnt lying then the killer flees after 1am? We dont see Liz from 12:35 on, so where is she and what is she doing? Since Liz may have been cut as early as 12:45-46, why is her killer fleeing after 1am, and why isnt she mutilated? Or even moved since her throat cut? Whats he doing standing there for perhaps 15minutes?

Ill make this easy, Louis arrives around 12:40, Lave is there at the gates, Louis calls for help upstairs, 3 members come down, 1 is Issac K, Louis or someone sends him out for help, 2 other Jews go out for help and meet Spooner on the way back. Eagle arrives back at the club. Eagle leaves for help after 1, so does Louis with someone who likely has a surname of Issacs.

You dont need imagined interruptions or timings that explain why Fanny, who is at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:30 until 1, just happens to miss seeing 3 men on the street and 1 assaulting Liz or anyone else leaving via the gates.

Looks like she 'just happens' to have missed Diemschutz arriving at 12.40 as well according to the above version?

[Michael W Richards]

2) The killer was interrupted then fled unseen when Diemschutz went into the club. Then another murder (with mutilations) occurred around 50 minutes later and 15 minutes walk away.

Number 2 is by far the likeliest imo.

So, if Louis isnt lying then the killer flees after 1am? We dont see Liz from 12:35 on, so where is she and what is she doing? Since Liz may have been cut as early as 12:45-46, why is her killer fleeing after 1am, and why isnt she mutilated? Or even moved since her throat cut? Whats he doing standing there for perhaps 15minutes?

Ill make this easy, Louis arrives around 12:40, Lave is there at the gates, Louis calls for help upstairs, 3 members come down, 1 is Issac K, Louis or someone sends him out for help, 2 other Jews go out for help and meet Spooner on the way back. Eagle arrives back at the club. Eagle leaves for help after 1, so does Louis with someone who likely has a surname of Issacs.

You dont need imagined interruptions or timings that explain why Fanny, who is at her door "nearly the whole time" from 12:30 until 1, just happens to miss seeing 3 men on the street and 1 assaulting Liz or anyone else leaving via the gates.

[FrankO]

Furthermore, if both Smith and Diemschitz had a visual line to that clock, and Smith's times are believed, then Diemschitz was either badly mistaken, or lying.

Or the clock stood still at 1:00, NBFN.

Possibly because the timings are a couple of minutes apart - either side of 1am.

I think that was the case rather than anything else.

Spooner meets Mr Harris on his way to the yard, the latter having gone outside after hearing a police whistle.

This is an odd one, as Lamb only blew his whistle after he had arrived in the yard and had sent PC 426H for the doctor and Eagle for the inspector and Spooner arrived in the yard before Lamb.

Spooner observes the deceased and then waits for about 5 minutes before Lamb arrives with 426H.

Diemshutz, on the other hand, has Lamb & PC 426H arrive immediately after Spooner had lifted Stride's chin.

We have Eagle's arrival time at the station. Irish Times, Oct 1:

The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.

Thanks, NBFN, I hadn't seen this one, yet.

[FrankO]

At the the Inquest Smith said " At 1 o clock I went to Berner Street in my ordinary round." This is a strange way of putting it. It sounds like he's saying - 'I was somewhere else then at 1.00 I went to Berner Street.'

You've chosen the worst representation of Smith's inquest testimony here, Herlock! If you'd have read the Daily News of 6 October or the Daily Telegraph of the same date, you'd have understood it the way Joshua explained it in post #836.

Daily News:
"My beat takes between 25 minutes and half an hour to patrol. I was in Berner street about 12.35 and got back there about one o'clock. I was not called there but went in my ordinary round. I saw the disturbance outside the gates of No 40. I heard no cries of "Police.""

Daily Telegraph:
"My beat was past Berner-street, and would take me twenty-five minutes or half an hour to go round. I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police.""

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

. If you wish to offer an opinion that an interruption occurred, or that the killer left via the gates, Id expect some evidence to support that

But again you're asking for impossible evidence and when it's not forthcoming you're citing it as proof that no interruption could have taken place.

If the killer was interrupted just after or just as Stride's throat was cut then there would be no evidence of this interruption apart from the lack of mutilation of course.

And if the killer left the gate unseen or unnoticed that's also not proof that it didn't happen. It's just proof that no one saw the person escaping. And how long would someone escaping have been in the street? A very few seconds?

So I can't see anything that precludes interruption or the killer making a getaway unseen or unnoticed.

...

So we are left with a choice.

1) A lying Schwartz and Diemschutz (both out in the open where the might have been seen and contradicted) and a conflicting conspiracy of club members. (If they'd wanted to protect the club's reputation why didn't they just chuck Liz's body onto Diemschutz cart, cover it with tarpaulin, then dump her a few streets away?)

Or
2) The killer was interrupted then fled unseen when Diemschutz went into the club. Then another murder (with mutilations) occurred around 50 minutes later and 15 minutes walk away.

Number 2 is by far the likeliest imo.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

PC Smith tells us exactly where he was at 1:00 am.

I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.
Times, 6 Oct.

If he were at the top of Berner street when the clock said 1, what time would it be when he arrives at Dutfield's Yard, if he walks at beat pace?

Would it take about 2 minutes? So if the clock had been about to tick over to 1:01, he arrives at 1:03.

[Michael W Richards]

The interruption isn't 'imagined' it's absolutely and entirely plausible. There's not a single doubt that this could have occurred. It simply cannot be dismissed. Disputed certainly but dismissed no. Dismissing it is impossible.

Equally you're theory isn't impossible. It cannot categorically be dismissed. You may indeed be correct that the killer was a club member; who knows? I just can't understand why you appear to be so certain?

I have a high degree of confidence in my perspective based on many years dealing with all the various issues with these statements and times numerous times Herlock. If you wish to offer an opinion that an interruption occurred, or that the killer left via the gates, Id expect some evidence to support that. The list of things "that could have" happened is vast, are you really that unclear about what happened there that youre willing to let a myriad of things which have left no trace of evidence in as possibles?

The real reason people want to imagine something here is because they cant accept that someone other than a serial mutilator killed Liz, and the lack of any intention evident for that the mutilation to have been desired necessitates an interruption as an explanation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Wess establishes a virtually empty street how many witnesses do we need in corroboration? If the reason Diemshutz was allowed to lay down his version unchallenged is that they believed him, then all that is needed established is who else was around before Louis. Morris and Lave do that. Fanny would just be another witness who says she saw no-one. Even Goldstein isnt really necessary, they knew before the Inquest that Liz saw someone pass the gates, not enter or leave through them.

I for one think that Louis lied, and maybe to quell any possible persecution retaliation from locals, they probably knew that and put him out there anyway. I also believe they really didnt find any evidence that Liz was on the street with 3 other people in a very brief interlude of heightened street activity around 12:45. The way its laid out for the public is that Wess establishes background for the site and a preliminary view. The intermediary view is given by Lave and Eagle...nothing going on, no-one around,...then Louis arrives and all hell breaks loose. Wess, Eagle, then Louis.

I believe the reality was that Louis arrived much earlier than he said he did, that Fanny was in one of her "off" moments, and that the bulk of what the majority of witnesses from the scene of the crime about times and actions is essentially truthful. I believe Issac K was sent out by himself around 12:40-45, because he says he was. I believe 3 witnesses who say they were by the body at around the same time as Issac K says he was. I think the reason Louis gave his story because the reality was he didnt have a formulated response to this kind of crisis, and he needed some time to think. He left for help after 1, sure, the rest of that falls into place with the comings of the officials and their times,.. but he waited for perhaps 15-20 minutes before doing it. Its why Eagle cannot outright state that Liz wasnt there when he arrived. He knew better, and lots of witnesses did too. "Couldnt be sure". Take a look at how wide that passageway was and when he says he stayed close to the wall when he went in...is it even possible that he could miss discovering LIz there? I dont see it.

Would Louis alter some details if it allowed the Club to dodge suspicions and to keep quiet the delay in his personally acting in response to the crime? I believe so. Would a theatrical friend of the club and Wess's help out by making a statement claiming she was seen being attacked off the property....sure. Why not. Could it hurt inserting a suggestion that the assailant was a anti-Semite? Might help actually. Maybe looked like he was trying to set them up by killing there.

The real bottom line on this issue is this......there are groups of witnesses that match times in their statements, there is another group that do not, nor do they corroborate each others statements, you have to choose. There will be no great reveal someday on this crime, you get what you got. You have to stand by one group or the other, and use evidence to make a case. No imagined interruptions unless warranted by the evidence, and thats not the lack of any.

The interruption isn't 'imagined' it's absolutely and entirely plausible. There's not a single doubt that this could have occurred. It simply cannot be dismissed. Disputed certainly but dismissed no. Dismissing it is impossible.

Equally you're theory isn't impossible. It cannot categorically be dismissed. You may indeed be correct that the killer was a club member; who knows? I just can't understand why you appear to be so certain?

[Wickerman]

Frank and some others already know this, but just in case it hasn't sunk in; if it is believed that Smith last went through Berner street at 12:30-12:35, he must reach the yard at close to 1am, and no more than a few minutes past - because his beat takes 25-30 minutes - and therefore Diemschitz cannot possibly have seen the clock at the top of the street saying 1:00.

PC Smith tells us exactly where he was at 1:00 am.

I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.
Times, 6 Oct.