Stride..a victim?

[Azarna]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

Lets play that out so you can see where the problem is...the killer would have heard the cart and horse before the 2 second assault, why would someone choose to go ahead anyway if his actual goal is pm mutilations?

But the problem is that I’m suggesting that he could have been interrupted just as he’d cut her throat. Maybe he even heard the cart as he was cutting her throat?

The man then ducks into the shadows and Diemschutz enters on his cart.

And we can't know what might constitute the "interruption".

Was it only at the point where Diemschultz actually came in to the yard? Perhaps unlikely as the murder had the least chance to hide or run at this point, though this is also the actual point at which the murderer was actually at risk of being caught in the act.

Or when the murderer heard the pony cart slow and begin to turn, and realized it was coming in the yard? My favourite "candidate" as at this point the murderer would have realized he was just about to be caught, so would have had to take action quickly, and had a moment to do so.

Or when the murderer first heard the pony cart coming down the road? Would he have been so jumpy as to have dropped Liz and hid or legged it as soon as he heard an approaching cart, even though there was probably more chance it was just passing traffic? Considering he is committing a murder in a yard right next to a noisy club, I don't picture him as being this nervy.

Or maybe something else disturbed him, such as a movement from the club, or a sound? Just before Deimschultz turned up.

Or even something like he realized he had got blood on himself during the throat cutting, and he panicked and legged it at this point... or a host of other possible "interruptions".

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
We have a killer, whoever he was, in Dutfield’s Yard with Elizabeth Stride - I assume that you accept this?

Fine so far.

We know that the killer, whoever he was, cut Elizabeth Stride’s throat and killed her - yes?

Again, Im in full agreement.

Hypothetically then...if the killer was interrupted we cannot know at what exact point he might have been interrupted? - no issues?

Ah, thats a problem. If he was interrupted at any point there would be some physical evidence of an unfinished act. Skirts raised, legs parted...hell, being put on her back would be one. But she appeared as if "gently lain down", and was untouched after what may have been a 2 second murder with a single cut. This "we cannot know" about an interruption is where we differ greatly. We certainly would be able to see if that happened.

Yes we would have been able to see skirts raised if the killer was interrupted at that point. But as we don’t know when an interruption might have occurred then no time is more likely than another. Therefore he could have been interrupted just as he’d cut her throat which would leave us with no evidence of interruption. So if there’s a possibility of him being interrupted at this point (and there is) then we can’t expect to see evidence.

So......if the killer cut Stride’s throat, and at that point before he got chance to raise her skirts for the act of mutilation, something or someone disturbed him, we are left with Stride on the ground with her throat cut and a man with a knife standing over her - ok?

Lets play that out so you can see where the problem is...the killer would have heard the cart and horse before the 2 second assault, why would someone choose to go ahead anyway if his actual goal is pm mutilations?

But the problem is that I’m suggesting that he could have been interrupted just as he’d cut her throat. Maybe he even heard the cart as he was cutting her throat?

The man then ducks into the shadows and Diemschutz enters on his cart.

Could be. At what time is my question? Who do we believe?

Or....could the killer have been disturbed by someone opening the side door?

Its the basics that are the trickiest here.

There’s always going to be difficulties when conflicting times exist. Who definitely had access to a clock or a watch at the right time? Who might have had? Who definitely didn’t? Who had a reason to log any specific time?

[Herlock Sholmes]

A possible alternative?

Sarah Diemschitz (stewardess of the club): Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard

.

Joseph Lave had recently arrived in England from the USA and was staying temporarily at the International Working Men's Educational Club at 40 Berner Street on the night of Elizabeth Stride's murder. In a statement to the press, he claimed that he had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am to get a breath of fresh air: "So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."^[1]

It was so dark in the yard that he had to feel his way along the wall of the club to find his way back in.

And Morris Eagle:

. He returned at 12.35am and as the front door was shut, he went through the open gates of Dutfield's Yard in order to enter the club via the back door. It was very dark, too dark to see if anybody was lying there

So the side door was closed at 12.35 as Eagle says that the yard was in darkness. Lave says that the yard was in darkness from 12.40 until 1.10 but we know that the yard wasn’t empty at 1.10 so he was obviously wrong on the time he went into the yard or how long he was out there for.

So the best we can say is that the side door was closed at approximately 12.35/12.40 (assuming that Eagle closed the door behind him of course) but it was opened and left open some time before Diemschutz returned. A possible explanation could be that someone just stood at the door for a breath of air and left the door open (possibly at Mrs Diemschutz request unless it was Mrs D herself who’d stood at the door?)

If this is a possibility then the person opening that side door, allowing light to spill into the yard, might have been the person that interrupted the killer. If this occurred at say 12.55/12.56/12.57 then Fanny Mortimer was inside and couldn’t have seen the killer escape.

Just a suggestion.

[Michael W Richards]

We have a killer, whoever he was, in Dutfield’s Yard with Elizabeth Stride - I assume that you accept this?

Fine so far.

We know that the killer, whoever he was, cut Elizabeth Stride’s throat and killed her - yes?

Again, Im in full agreement.

Hypothetically then...if the killer was interrupted we cannot know at what exact point he might have been interrupted? - no issues?

Ah, thats a problem. If he was interrupted at any point there would be some physical evidence of an unfinished act. Skirts raised, legs parted...hell, being put on her back would be one. But she appeared as if "gently lain down", and was untouched after what may have been a 2 second murder with a single cut. This "we cannot know" about an interruption is where we differ greatly. We certainly would be able to see if that happened.

So......if the killer cut Stride’s throat, and at that point before he got chance to raise her skirts for the act of mutilation, something or someone disturbed him, we are left with Stride on the ground with her throat cut and a man with a knife standing over her - ok?

Lets play that out so you can see where the problem is...the killer would have heard the cart and horse before the 2 second assault, why would someone choose to go ahead anyway if his actual goal is pm mutilations?

The man then ducks into the shadows and Diemschutz enters on his cart.

Could be. At what time is my question? Who do we believe?

Its the basics that are the trickiest here.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Where would this man have supposed Diemschitz would stop?

By a Juror: Was there room for you to have passed the body with your cart?
Diemschitz: Oh, yes. Mine is not a very wide cart; it only took up the centre of the passage. If my pony had not shied, perhaps I would not have noticed it at all.

He could not assume the cart would stop at the body, so even retreating to the rear of the yard would not have seemed adequately safe (especially if he saw other carts there).

Time to start climbing, and hope no one hears …

Why would you assume that the killer would make those kind of calculations on the spur of the moment? He hears the cart, ducks into the shadows then sees the cart pull into the yard. What else could he have done? If he’d seen other carts maybe he hid behind one?

[caz]

There is evidence of a potential interruption with the pony and cart's arrival; Louis D's realisation that he nearly ran over Stride's dead or dying body; and the fact that the discovery must have been made within a few minutes of her throat being cut, which could easily have been done just as, or just after the killer heard the pony and cart approaching along Berner Street. In fact, if it was the sound itself that made the killer panic and make the fatal cut, that would deal neatly with the coincidental timing issue. No coincidence, just cause and effect. In this extremely plausible scenario, it wouldn't matter if he had planned to mutilate her or not. He'd still have needed to leave the body quick smart and make sure he couldn't be seen there until he could exit the yard safely.

The irony is that this scenario would have been even more likely if Louis had arrived around 12.40, five minutes or so after PC Smith had seen Stride alive, talking to a man who could well have been her killer. Once the copper had moved on, the killer may have thought he had a decent window to do the deed, but didn't allow for a pony and cart coming along when it did.

But it also works if the clock showed 1am when Louis passed it on his way to the yard, and was correct. The killer could have been in the yard with Stride, not ready or willing to launch an attack there. He could have been working on her, trying to persuade her to leave with him for a less risky location. Before he could get anywhere, the sound of the pony and cart would have ruined his plans, and he cut her throat in panic or frustration.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So......if the killer cut Stride’s throat, and at that point before he got chance to raise her skirts for the act of mutilation, something or someone disturbed him, we are left with Stride on the ground with her throat cut and a man with a knife standing over her - ok?

The man then ducks into the shadows and Diemschutz enters on his cart.

Where would this man have supposed Diemschitz would stop?

By a Juror: Was there room for you to have passed the body with your cart?
Diemschitz: Oh, yes. Mine is not a very wide cart; it only took up the centre of the passage. If my pony had not shied, perhaps I would not have noticed it at all.

He could not assume the cart would stop at the body, so even retreating to the rear of the yard would not have seemed adequately safe (especially if he saw other carts there).

Time to start climbing, and hope no one hears …

[Herlock Sholmes]

Comments from others welcome of course.

Hello Herlock,

Not a comment but a bit of advice. Just let it go. You can only lead the horse to water....

c.d.

Sounds like good advice c.d.

[c.d.]

Comments from others welcome of course.

Hello Herlock,

Not a comment but a bit of advice. Just let it go. You can only lead the horse to water....

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s now beyond question that you are unable to debate the individual points without simply repeating your initial point. You simply expect your points to be accepted without question and the evidence for this is your repetition. So I’ll give it one last try on the most obvious point where you argue that black is white.....the concept of ‘evidence of interruption.’

ok

We have a killer, whoever he was, in Dutfield’s Yard with Elizabeth Stride - I assume that you accept this?

We know that the killer, whoever he was, cut Elizabeth Stride’s throat and killed her - yes?

Hypothetically then...if the killer was interrupted we cannot know at what exact point he might have been interrupted? - no issues?

So......if the killer cut Stride’s throat, and at that point before he got chance to raise her skirts for the act of mutilation, something or someone disturbed him, we are left with Stride on the ground with her throat cut and a man with a knife standing over her - ok?

The man then ducks into the shadows and Diemschutz enters on his cart.

And so the question now is this.......We now walk into the yard and look at the body and the location. We KNOW that the killer has been interrupted in this scenario so what evidence of that interruption would we EXPECT to see? What evidence HAD to have been there for an interruption? Not what would have been there if he’d been interrupted after he’d lifted her skirts but what evidence if he’d been interrupted at the point stated above?

You keep repeating that the absence of evidence for interruption is somehow proof that there could have been no interruption. So I’m asking you what evidence had to have been there?

Comments from others welcome of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This Keystone Cops problem solving is hard to let go of I see.

Amazing You concoct a fantasy and then criticise others for pointing it out.

There absolutely would be some evidence of an interruption if one had happened of course. You folks seem to think interruptions happen by plan, or that a killer tidies up before he flees.

Even more amazing A toddler could understand that this is nonsense. Name the evidence? What would you expect to see. Not what might have been there but what would have had to have been evident? I can no longer pass you constant repeating of this as misunderstanding because it’s impossible that an adult can’t understand this. It’s dishonesty, pure and simple and everyone can see it.

No-one was seen leaving by the gates from 12:50 to 1, so he starts up his hot air balloon he left in the yard and pops up into the sky..away from anyone who might be looking for him at ground level.

So, all through the history of crime or simply of events when someone leaves a location unseen but no one sees them then we are right to proclaim that that person was never there in the first place? More kindergarten logic.

Which of course there was. People who arent near locks or do not have identified watches do not as a rule give accurate times......(Diemshitz, Eagle, Lave), and people who do have access to watches and clocks refer to those devices when they want to check the time... (Fanny, Heschberg, Gillen and Issac K).

I’ll ask again, show me the proof that Fanny Mortimer owned a clock? I’ll save you the time Michael, that proof doesn’t exist.

For those that were inside the club - was there a clock? I don’t know if you can point to proof of that one but you may be able to. I don’t know? But here’s a thing with human beings Micheal, they can only look in one direction at a time. Does that come as a shock to you? So what if, when they were informed that there was a dead body in the yard, the clock on the wall was behind them (I know that you’ll probably find that staggeringly unlikely - or more accurately, inconvenient) So what reason would they have had, when told, to check the clock and log the time. I’ll answer that one for you too....absolutely none.

Ive asked you and Frank has asked you but who is Gillen?? Is it Gilleman?

Pretending that the former is more reliable than the latter is just ridiculous.

I’ve just demonstrated what ridiculous is. Your nonsense about clocks. And as for your statement about Mortimer’s clock - what do you call it when someone states an unknown as a fact to suit their argument?

There is no universal time on anyones clock and watch, to expect that any witness had the exact correct time anywhere is also ridiculous.

I’ve been saying this for days. Keep up.

But when 4 people give the same time and events within a 5 minute span...well, do I need to keep pointing out the bleeding obvious? A rhetorcal question of course...some of you folks dont get it and never will.

More dishonesty. Eagle said he saw the body at 1.00. Spooner said 12.35 and then he said just after 12.55. Hoschberg said “about 12.45 I should think.” Kozebrodski said “about 12.40.”

The fact that they are even remotely close is hardly surprising is it. None of them are going to say 4.30 are they? Fallible witnesses one of whom definitely had no access to a clock. Did Kozebrodski and Henschberg check a click? The use of the words “about” and “I should think” strongly suggest no. These witnesses can safely be ignored on timings unless you’re a conspiracy theorist desperate to prop up a theory at all costs.

Ripper man got his name because after he kills he rips the victims open,...the obvious again is that Liz Stride has one cut and no evidence that she was even touched again by her killer.

You are simply humiliating yourself by constantly going on about this Michael. Show some self-respect, admit you’re wrong and let it go for f*^*s sake!

To play these...yeah, maybe he chose not to riip...maybe despite any evidence being left there was an interruption,

Pathetic. Sorry but there’s no other word for this.

yeah,...maybe Fanny had sneezing fits at her door at 1am and didnt see Louis arriving, or yeah,..she could hear a single pair of boots while inside but Israels supposed yell from BSM across the street was at frequencies only dogs can hear......

Feeble and embarrassing. She was in a house. She wasn’t chained to the front room. Grow up.

Israel had nothing to add here, only an excuse for who might have killed her. And surprise, its not anyone from the club...its a gentile from off premises.

Maybe it was a Freemason. Or a shapeshifting Illuminati? You never know?

To keep using banal and frankly baseless arguments to discredit my observation of the facts and suggesting storylines that fit them is I guess fun for you...

By banal you mean normal, common sense, reasonable, non-barking mad conspiracy waffle. It’s you that is suggesting a storyline here Michael. You talk of trying to discredit you. It’s nothing of the kind. Try disengaging your ego for a second. All that’s been done on this thread has been posters disagreeing with you until you threw two massive, childish tantrums.

but it misinforms everyone gullible enough tyo buy your tainietd goods and does a disservice to anyone really looking to find out what happened.

All of this outrage because you can’t cope with being disagreed with.

Creating fictional interruptions,

You can’t know it didn’t happen. I’m asking you to stop embarrassing yourself and the subject on this point Micheal. It’s black and white. We could not expect to see evidence of interruption.

Ripperless Rippers and suggesting fradulent clock readers only serves one purpose..

Like you fraudulently claiming that FM had a clock to suit your argument.

to try and forward your Ripper agenda.

Fringe lunacy. You’re the one with the agenda.

Glad I passed on making conclusions before the facts, you should try it sometime.

No, you’ve taken Schwartz absence from the Inquest and looked for a cover up. You’ve found 4 witnesses who’ve very obvious given mistaken times and put 2 and 2 together and made 17. A transparent agenda.

I should probably give up asking if Gillen is Gilleman and I should probably also stop asking for a list of the experts that agree with your theory. Or is everyone so stupid that they can’t see it. Only you eh Micheal?

Your just repeating the same erroneous logic; obvious distortions and blatant and unswerving agenda.

[FrankO]

Which map are you using? The Goad 1890 map appears to show an archway through the building at the Batty Street end.

Hi Joshua,

I'm using the OS London, Five feet to the Mile, 1893-1896, see here:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.51670&lon=-0.07610&layers=163&b=1

Looking at this map, it seems that the Batty Street end of Hampshire Court is blocked/closed by some building, but I'm sure you're right in that, in fact, an archway went through that building.

All the best,
Frank

[Michael W Richards]

This Keystone Cops problem solving is hard to let go of I see. There absolutely would be some evidence of an interruption if one had happened of course. You folks seem to think interruptions happen by plan, or that a killer tidies up before he flees. No-one was seen leaving by the gates from 12:50 to 1, so he starts up his hot air balloon he left in the yard and pops up into the sky..away from anyone who might be looking for him at ground level. Which of course there was. People who arent near locks or do not have identified watches do not as a rule give accurate times......(Diemshitz, Eagle, Lave), and people who do have access to watches and clocks refer to those devices when they want to check the time... (Fanny, Heschberg, Gillen and Issac K). Pretending that the former is more reliable than the latter is just ridiculous. There is no universal time on anyones clock and watch, to expect that any witness had the exact correct time anywhere is also ridiculous. But when 4 people give the same time and events within a 5 minute span...well, do I need to keep pointing out the bleeding obvious? A rhetorcal question of course...some of you folks dont get it and never will.

Ripper man got his name because after he kills he rips the victims open,...the obvious again is that Liz Stride has one cut and no evidence that she was even touched again by her killer. To play these...yeah, maybe he chose not to riip...maybe despite any evidence being left there was an interruption, yeah,...maybe Fanny had sneezing fits at her door at 1am and didnt see Louis arriving, or yeah,..she could hear a single pair of boots while inside but Israels supposed yell from BSM across the street was at frequencies only dogs can hear......

Israel had nothing to add here, only an excuse for who might have killed her. And surprise, its not anyone from the club...its a gentile from off premises.

To keep using banal and frankly baseless arguments to discredit my observation of the facts and suggesting storylines that fit them is I guess fun for you...but it misinforms everyone gullible enough tyo buy your tainietd goods and does a disservice to anyone really looking to find out what happened. Creating fictional interruptions, Ripperless Rippers and suggesting fradulent clock readers only serves one purpose...to try and forward your Ripper agenda.

Glad I passed on making conclusions before the facts, you should try it sometime.

[caz]

There’s no reason at all to suggest that the killer couldn’t have been interrupted of course Caz. Michael repeatedly points out that because there’s no positive evidence of interruption then we should assume that there was none. But, as we all know, there’s no reason that we should expect such evidence (as I tried to illustrate with my bag snatching analogy.) If he’d been interrupted 2 or 3 seconds later then yes Liz might have been discovered with her skirts raised but no mutilation but if he’d been disturbed just as he’d finished drawing the knife across her throat they we are left with nothing. So it’s obviously possible that the killer was interrupted. I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone could dispute this very obvious reasoning.

Hi Herlock,

The argument now seems to be that because Stride was left unripped she could not have been a ripper victim. But how is this logical? It implies that if the ripper had seen Stride in the company of other men and assumed she was in business, like Nichols and Chapman, he'd have ripped her regardless of what was going around around him. The fact that nobody ever saw an actual murder being committed suggests that the killer in each case took sufficient care to act only while the coast was clear.

Perhaps the argument should stick to the killer of Nichols and Chapman being out of action at the end of September. That's the only logical way to argue for the 'ripper' to be eliminated as a suspect for both the Stride and Eddowes murders. He needs a bloody good alibi.

Love,

Caz
X

[Joshua Rogan]

That doesn't seem to be possible, as the Batty Street end of Hamshire Court seems to be closed, or at least it is on the map we're both looking at.

Which map are you using? The Goad 1890 map appears to show an archway through the building at the Batty Street end.