Ripper Facts

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rosella

Yes - I think Church Lane sighting was Jack - you're right, it was early in news and previous witness description not published so not a case of making it up based upon others.

My concern is I'm thinking Whitechapel residents were mainly working class and I think Jack was not. Hopefully this will make someone stand out

All the best

Craig

The Church Lane sighting is a red herring. It may have been true, but given the number of men out and about in the late hours there's no reason to suppose it's Jack. Quite the opposite, in fact. Jack would not have stopped moving until he was in the City. He got no blood on his hands from killing Stride, so there'd have been no reason for him to stop and wipe his hands off. The man seen in Church Lane was likely a dock worker who, like James Brown, worked late and grabbed his supper at a chandler's shop.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Craig H]

No, Craig, it absolutely can't hurt. A lot of work though, and how do we know that he didn't live with very elderly relatives who didn't notice his comings and goings?

I do believe in the sighting of peaked hat man in Church Lane, actually. The timing is off but then people without watches often made a guess at the time. It would be reasonably logical for Jack to sit there in semi-darkness, contemplate his options and then move towards Whitechapel Highstreet, in search of more prey. What makes this sighting interesting is that before it was published only PC Smith's description of a suspect was being circulated.

Hi Rosella

Yes - I think Church Lane sighting was Jack - you're right, it was early in news and previous witness description not published so not a case of making it up based upon others.

My concern is I'm thinking Whitechapel residents were mainly working class and I think Jack was not. Hopefully this will make someone stand out

All the best

Craig

[Craig H]

Craig

you may turn something up.
worst case you have lots of research on people its not.

At least you are doing some real work. good for you my friend.

all the best

steve

Hi Steve & GUT

Many thanks. Yes finding out a lot about job occupations in Whitechapel - not many IT Consulants or eCommerce Specialists !

Craig

[Rosella]

No, Craig, it absolutely can't hurt. A lot of work though, and how do we know that he didn't live with very elderly relatives who didn't notice his comings and goings?

I do believe in the sighting of peaked hat man in Church Lane, actually. The timing is off but then people without watches often made a guess at the time. It would be reasonably logical for Jack to sit there in semi-darkness, contemplate his options and then move towards Whitechapel Highstreet, in search of more prey. What makes this sighting interesting is that before it was published only PC Smith's description of a suspect was being circulated.

[GUT]

Craig

you may turn something up.
worst case you have lots of research on people its not.

At least you are doing some real work. good for you my friend.

all the best

steve

What's more you will learn a lot about the people and the times.

[Elamarna]

Craig

you may turn something up.
worst case you have lots of research on people its not.

At least you are doing some real work. good for you my friend.

all the best

steve

An update on where I'm up to .....

I'm using Findmypast to search for all single men, who were lodgers, living in Whitechapel district for 1891 Census.

This brings me to 830 people.

The other assumption based from witness statements is he was not working class. Some people describe him as like a "clerk" and respectably dressed. If Marshall is valid, he heard the man say in an educated voice "you would say anything but your prayers"

I'm also assuming that he had some surgical knowledge. The coroners - except for Bond - said the killer must have had surgical knowledge. I'm not thinking he had to be a doctor but could have been medically trained, a game hunter, a butcher, worked in a mortuary or similar.

Again - realise assumptions may not be valid - some serial killers are married, he may have lived outside Whitechapel and people moved around a lot back then. However, I'm thinking he was not working class so may mean less transient.

I'm aware 1891 Census in April was 2 1/2 years after the killings.

The above assumptions will hopefully help me reduce the 830 list down to a smaller number.

Again, may be a waste of time, but willing to see where it goes.

Interested in others advice or guidance

All the best

Craig

[GUT]

An update on where I'm up to .....

I'm using Findmypast to search for all single men, who were lodgers, living in Whitechapel district for 1891 Census.

This brings me to 830 people.

The other assumption based from witness statements is he was not working class. Some people describe him as like a "clerk" and respectably dressed. If Marshall is valid, he heard the man say in an educated voice "you would say anything but your prayers"

I'm also assuming that he had some surgical knowledge. The coroners - except for Bond - said the killer must have had surgical knowledge. I'm not thinking he had to be a doctor but could have been medically trained, a game hunter, a butcher, worked in a mortuary or similar.

Again - realise assumptions may not be valid - some serial killers are married, he may have lived outside Whitechapel and people moved around a lot back then. However, I'm thinking he was not working class so may mean less transient.

I'm aware 1891 Census in April was 2 1/2 years after the killings.

The above assumptions will hopefully help me reduce the 830 list down to a smaller number.

Again, may be a waste of time, but willing to see where it goes.

Interested in others advice or guidance

All the best

Craig

Good luck, can't hurt.

[Craig H]

Research update

An update on where I'm up to .....

I'm using Findmypast to search for all single men, who were lodgers, living in Whitechapel district for 1891 Census.

This brings me to 830 people.

The other assumption based from witness statements is he was not working class. Some people describe him as like a "clerk" and respectably dressed. If Marshall is valid, he heard the man say in an educated voice "you would say anything but your prayers"

I'm also assuming that he had some surgical knowledge. The coroners - except for Bond - said the killer must have had surgical knowledge. I'm not thinking he had to be a doctor but could have been medically trained, a game hunter, a butcher, worked in a mortuary or similar.

Again - realise assumptions may not be valid - some serial killers are married, he may have lived outside Whitechapel and people moved around a lot back then. However, I'm thinking he was not working class so may mean less transient.

I'm aware 1891 Census in April was 2 1/2 years after the killings.

The above assumptions will hopefully help me reduce the 830 list down to a smaller number.

Again, may be a waste of time, but willing to see where it goes.

Interested in others advice or guidance

All the best

Craig

[Craig H]

Hi Pierre

I think your previous comments about him being a risk taker are right.

However, also think he took the practical steps (does not mean he was very cautious) not to get much blood on him.

The coroner's description of how he strangled the victims first to prevent blood spurting, and moved their bodies to certain positions in making his cuts, sounds to me like someone used to game hunting

Craig

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Craig H;382347]

I can see how Jack minimised blood stains on the earlier killings as he strangled them first so there was no spurting blood.

Hi Craig,

So you mean that he was cautious and actually aware of the risk of blood stains as a problem?

How important do you consider this to have been for the killer and why?

Regards, Pierre

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes, thanks Jerry, very interesting.

[Elamarna]

Joshua,

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/13265.html

Thanks Jerry

just backs up what i said yesterday about how helpful you are

Stevey

[jerryd]

I don't recall this sighting, do you have a source for this?



Not really away from Mitre Square....Church Lane is almost on the most direct route between the two, which would incorporate the length of Whitechapel Highstreet, if he was intent on finding a prostitute to take out his frustrations on. I'm not saying the sighting was connected, but I don't think you can rule it out for being off-course.

Joshua,

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/13265.html

[Elamarna]

I don't recall this sighting, do you have a source for this?



Not really away from Mitre Square....Church Lane is almost on the most direct route between the two, which would incorporate the length of Whitechapel Highstreet, if he was intent on finding a prostitute to take out his frustrations on. I'm not saying the sighting was connected, but I don't think you can rule it out for being off-course.

Joshua


i will need to go look for it, but it is reported on this forum several times.

it would be quicker to go down commercial road the whole way, turning into church lane is a detour away from MS.
yes it gave him more to chose from, but its the time involved concerns me.


Steve

[Craig H]

Depends what he was wearing and how many people were about when he left, I suppose Craig. I think that he was either naked or in his underclothes at the time he murdered her if I'm perfectly honest, and if that's the case he would have just put his unstained outer clothes back on and nobody would have been any the wiser. Skin may have been wiped on whatever clothing was burned in the fire place, or possibly washed at the pump in Millers Court (I'm sure there was one, but I could be wrong).

Kelly was in her chemise, and in bed so it follows to me that he would have undressed and got into bed with her. The knife could have been concealed in a sock or waistband of whatever underclothes he was wearing. I doubt that Kelly was in any state to notice it anyway. I also think people tend to overestimate how much people scream and make a fuss when confronted by someone with a weapon - it's not uncommon for people in that situation to either try to bargain with their assailant or to completely freeze up.

I have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to argue my point, but every time I look at a map of the killings my eye ends up drawn to Whitechapel High Street. I often wonder that, if he did not live there, whether he may have had a shop or workshop there that allowed him to store a clean set of clothes and gave him washing facilities.

Hi Ms Weatherwax,
Of course - if he had removed clothes before killing Kelly then any blood stains would be covered up.
I'll have a look at Whitechapel High Street on the map.
Getting late here = will read your comments again in morning
All the best
Craig