Does anything rule Bury out?

[Fisherman]

Single-O-Seven: If his wife knew or suspected him to be JTR and was prepared to out him, could this have not been a driving force to make him snap and do her in, regardless how commonly serial killers turn on their spouses?

"Could"? Those questions should always be answered by a yes. But itīs about likelihoods and credibilitites, not about "coulds"...

The minor, Ripper-esque mutilations came about for the simple reason that he now had a dead woman and an urge to fill, and so filled it as little as he could allow himself. His reasons for not going all-out with the mutilations could be simply that he felt some fear or guilt for having killed his wife, or knew that he would likely be pegged as the Ripper if her murder looked too much like a Ripper crime, something he wanted to avoid by killing her in the first place. Just some idle speculations...

So he was able to stop himself from further mutilation, but not able to stop himself from cutting her open? Able to stop himself from cutting her neck but not able to leave the abdomen uncut?

Once he noticed that he had gone half-Ripper style on the body, why go to the police and tell them? Why not dump the body in the Thames?

It takes a lot of effort to squeeze him into the Rippers shoes, I feel. And once you try, they do not fit anyway.

[Fisherman]

Time for some shut-eye now!

[John Wheat]

Well Fisherman you are confusing me slightly you seem to be asking why would Bury be in Whitechapel if he wasn't the Ripper? Which seems bizarre given the thread title. My answer is that Bury would have taken his horse and cart into Whitechapel supposedly to sell sand and sawdust and then drank until the early hours. I admit there are some alleged minor problems with Bury being the Ripper but these pail into comparison to every other Ripper suspect in my opinion.

[Fisherman]

Well Fisherman you are confusing me slightly you seem to be asking why would Bury be in Whitechapel if he wasn't the Ripper? Which seems bizarre given the thread title. My answer is that Bury would have taken his horse and cart into Whitechapel supposedly to sell sand and sawdust and then drank until the early hours. I admit there are some alleged minor problems with Bury being the Ripper but these pail into comparison to every other Ripper suspect in my opinion.

The geography issue is of large importance. So far, all I am seeing is statements about how Bury MAY have been in Whitechapel at the relevant removes in time, coupled with false claims that he was (not from you, though).

And it all goes round in circles - he was probably in Whitechapel killing away, since he was the type of killer that we are looking for (not true - he was a domestic killer, and he did not do the same sort of damage the Ripper did other than to a rather limited degree. Plus we know that others mutilated months after his death.)

On any list of "suspects", Bury deserves a place. But he has to stand aside as long as other suspects CAN be placed on or close by murder spots. They take precedence, and must be cleared before there is any need to go further afield, looking for the killer.

[John Wheat]

The geography issue is of large importance. So far, all I am seeing is statements about how Bury MAY have been in Whitechapel at the relevant removes in time, coupled with false claims that he was (not from you, though).

And it all goes round in circles - he was probably in Whitechapel killing away, since he was the type of killer that we are looking for (not true - he was a domestic killer, and he did not do the same sort of damage the Ripper did other than to a rather limited degree. Plus we know that others mutilated months after his death.)

On any list of "suspects", Bury deserves a place. But he has to stand aside as long as other suspects CAN be placed on or close by murder spots. They take precedence, and must be cleared before there is any need to go further afield, looking for the killer.

I disagree with your criteria for what makes a strong Ripper suspect. You seem to value someone who is tied to a crime scene eg Hutchinson who is just a witness and there is nothing to say he was the Ripper. I value someone who killed in a similar fashion to the Ripper eg Bury I'm not going to get into an argument about how similar Ellen Bury's murder was to the C5, other threads have discussed this. Yes I admit Bury can't be placed in Whitechapel at the time and numerous men can be but that doesn't mean Bury wasn't the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

John Wheat: I disagree with your criteria for what makes a strong Ripper suspect.

Of course you do - otherwise, we would both regard Bury as a weak suspect.

You seem to value someone who is tied to a crime scene eg Hutchinson who is just a witness and there is nothing to say he was the Ripper.

I cannot take the full honour for valuing opportunity - it is something I have borrowed from the police.

I value someone who killed in a similar fashion to the Ripper eg Bury.

And that is not uninteresting per se - but opportunity takes precedence over these matters, as long as they are not completley and utterly unique. And in Burys case, they are not.

I'm not going to get into an argument about how similar Ellen Bury's murder was to the C5, other threads have discussed this.

It is an extremely important matter, nevertheless: "Ellen Bury ... had been strangled and her abdomen had been ripped open by a wound beginning 1― inches from the pubis and extending upwards for 4 ― inches, the wound was so severe that 12 inches of intestines were protruding through her stomach. Apart from the wound to the abdomen there were a total of nine other knife wounds to the body. The box, which was clearly too small to accommodate the body, had been packed tightly with books and clothing. Ellen's head had been forced to one side of the shoulder, the left leg was broken and twisted to such a degree that the foot rested on the left shoulder, the right leg had been smashed in order to fit it into the box, the body was lying on it's back on a petticoat and a piece of cloth."

The one trait that is there with all the C5 is the cut neck. Ellen does not have it.

The cut to the stomach started 1,5 inches fron the pubes and stretched 4,5 inches up. That makes for a 11-12 centimeter cut. The Ripper cut from sternum to pubes, opening up a huge gap.

If we look at MacKenzie, her injuries involved the severance of the left carotid artery - she had her neck cut.
Two stabs in the left side of the neck 'carried forward in the same skin wound.'
A seven-inch wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
Small cut across the mons veneris.

All in all, this fits the Ripper agenda a lot better - albeit not well enough to satisfy the majority of ripperologists that she was a Ripper victim. Ellen Bury is a significantly worse fit. Plus she was the wife of Bury.

The sum of the equation tells me that Bury was not the Ripper - and after his death, there was somebody left on the streets who made for a much better fit.

Yes I admit Bury can't be placed in Whitechapel at the time and numerous men can be but that doesn't mean Bury wasn't the Ripper.

No, it does not - as long as we canīt say where he was, the murder spots remain a possibility. But with a weak correlation to the Ripper murder pattern, he would need to have a proven opportunity to elevate him to the prime suspect. Without that element, he remains a person of interest in my eyes, but not much more.

[Harry D]

Interestingly, Dr Lennox told the court he believed that it was a case of suicide, not homicide and, bizarrely, after finding Bury guilty of murder the jury initially recommended mercy, partly on account of the "conflicting medical evidence"!

That probably had something to do with the controversy surrounding the death penalty in Dundee at that time. Wasn't he the last criminal hanged there?

[The Good Michael]

I'd like to know why people put other suspect's ahead of Bury?

James Kelly is a far superior suspect to Bury. He too cannot be placed in the East End at the time of the murders, but he had family there and the police questioned them. He was a known lunatic who cut his wife's throat. He was probably a sociopath if we can go by the letters he wrote to get what he wanted from the prison. Along with Kelly, we have Kosminski and we have, if nothing else, the mention of Druitt. Bury is a long way down the list.

Mike

[Harry D]

Post-mortem mutilation is a peculiarity. It wouldn't be many men's first instinct after a murder to draw a knife and start mutilating their victim's abdomen. However, this was something the Ripper had in common with no other named suspect than William Bury.

[John Wheat]

James Kelly is a far superior suspect to Bury. He too cannot be placed in the East End at the time of the murders, but he had family there and the police questioned them. He was a known lunatic who cut his wife's throat. He was probably a sociopath if we can go by the letters he wrote to get what he wanted from the prison. Along with Kelly, we have Kosminski and we have, if nothing else, the mention of Druitt. Bury is a long way down the list.

Mike

This is all just your opinion and I think your wrong. As far as I can see Druitt has very little going for him. Kosminski is named as the Police wrongly thought they were looking for a Jewish man. I'll admit Kelly is an okay suspect at least he is a proven murderer but whereas Bury mutilated his wife post mortem. Kelly didn't. Also there is no record of Kelly ever having been violent before or after his wife's murder.

[The Good Michael]

This is all just your opinion and I think your wrong. As far as I can see Druitt has very little going for him. Kosminski is named as the Police wrongly thought they were looking for a Jewish man. I'll admit Kelly is an okay suspect at least he is a proven murderer but whereas Bury mutilated his wife post mortem. Kelly didn't. Also there is no record of Kelly ever having been violent before or after his wife's murder.

Bury is just a feeling people have. Nothing there.

Mike

[John Wheat]

Bury is just a feeling people have. Nothing there.

Mike

With Bury there are two logical conclusions the first being he was Jack. The second being he was the Worlds first copycat killer.

[The Good Michael]

With Bury there are two logical conclusions the first being he was Jack. The second being he was the Worlds first copycat killer.

As I said, just a feeling some few people have. The result of a bit of undigested beef perhaps.

Mike

[John Wheat]

As I said, just a feeling some few people have. The result of a bit of undigested beef perhaps.

Mike

Are you saying you think Bury was the Worlds first copycat killer?

[GUT]

Are you saying you think Bury was the Worlds first copycat killer?

Why would he be the Worlds First.