Does anything rule Bury out?

[Batman]

I must admit, even though I have read the most popular books on JtR, Bury never really stood out in the mainstream books much. So I understand this candidate is actually quite an old one with several books about him. Since then I guess research has progressed. So as far as we know, is Bury still a good candidate because he was active in Whitechapel and without alibi but has some of the traits JtR would have? Or has something ruled him out such as being in prison or elsewhere during the JtR crimes?

thanks.

[Cogidubnus]

OK I'll put my head over the parapet...

(a) he didn't cut her throat - JtR did

(b) he employed a ligature - JtR didn't

(C) his abdominal mutilations, such as they were, seem tentative if not imitatory

(D) Does he leave her posed on the street? No he attempts to pack her into a wooden box, breaking her leg in the process...

(E) He's not quick witted - he hangs around for almost a week as if wondering what to do...christ all he had to do was have a shave and catch a train...any train, headed anywhere...this was maybe the last generation that could make a trace-free fresh start - Cadosche did...this guy could've...and didn't...

(F) far from any escape strategy or even hasty risk taking, he eventually wanders down to the local copshop and effectively (though Wyatt Earp denies it) hands himself in...

Is this not enough?

[John Wheat]

OK I'll put my head over the parapet...

(a) he didn't cut her throat - JtR did

(b) he employed a ligature - JtR didn't

(C) his abdominal mutilations, such as they were, seem tentative if not imitatory

(D) Does he leave her posed on the street? No he attempts to pack her into a wooden box, breaking her leg in the process...

(E) He's not quick witted - he hangs around for almost a week as if wondering what to do...christ all he had to do was have a shave and catch a train...any train, headed anywhere...this was maybe the last generation that could make a trace-free fresh start - Cadosche did...this guy could've...and didn't...

(F) far from any escape strategy or even hasty risk taking, he eventually wanders down to the local copshop and effectively (though Wyatt Earp denies it) hands himself in...

Is this not enough?

Hi Dave

I hope you are well.

There is nothing to rule Bury out.

(A) And (C) Why would he hang himself.

(B) Are we totally sure a ligature wasn't used in at least one of the C5.

(D) And (E) Is forcing a body into a trunk and then leaving it for a week the actions of a one time wife murderer?

(F) You seem to have Jack down as a criminal mastermind. This seems unlikely. Also why would a one time wife murderer be concerned with being JTR?

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

OK I'll put my head over the parapet...

(a) he didn't cut her throat - JtR did

(b) he employed a ligature - JtR didn't

(C) his abdominal mutilations, such as they were, seem tentative if not imitatory

(D) Does he leave her posed on the street? No he attempts to pack her into a wooden box, breaking her leg in the process...

(E) He's not quick witted - he hangs around for almost a week as if wondering what to do...christ all he had to do was have a shave and catch a train...any train, headed anywhere...this was maybe the last generation that could make a trace-free fresh start - Cadosche did...this guy could've...and didn't...

(F) far from any escape strategy or even hasty risk taking, he eventually wanders down to the local copshop and effectively (though Wyatt Earp denies it) hands himself in...

Is this not enough?

I see what your saying Cog, but...
nothing rules him out.

He fits the avg joe profile serial killer
known user of prostitutes
was in the area
proven killer of a woman
used strangulation
used knife
abdomen targeted
person of interest at the time
preoccupied with being blamed for being "jack the ripper"
was known to be violent
end of ripper killings in London when he left

and one only needs to look at Kemper for an example of successful serial killers who not only go out with a whimper, but have very different MOs when killing family members.

That being said, nothing ties Bury directly to any of the crimes, which is a biggie in my book.

so as ripper suspects go, hes weak like all the rest, just one of the less weak IMHO.

[Wyatt Earp]

That being said, nothing ties Bury directly to any of the crimes, which is a biggie in my book.

so as ripper suspects go, hes weak like all the rest, just one of the less weak IMHO.

My Uncle Gandalf Earp once said to me, “Whitey, did I ever tell you the story about the egg in the doghouse?”

“It’s Wyatt, not Whitey,” I said. “No, I don’t think you ever told me that story, Uncle Gandalf.”

“Well, Whitey, this was some time ago. I’m not a farmer, and I only had three critters in my yard: a chicken named Henrietta, a rooster named Duke, and an old dog named Matilda. One morning I noticed an egg in Matilda’s doghouse.

I called all three of these critters together and I said to them, ‘Which one of you left that egg in there?’

And even though I couldn’t find any of Henrietta’s feathers in the doghouse, the four of us looked at each other and we all knew it was her.”

“Thanks, Uncle Gandalf,” I said, “But what does this have to do with William Bury?”

“It’s like this, Whitey. Ellen Bury’s murder is the egg, and we got three fellas in the yard: Bury the Copycat, Bury the Coincidence and Bury the Ripper. Now I’ve read this here article of yours in the magazine. And even though Bury the Ripper’s feathers ain’t in that doghouse, we can all know it was him that laid that egg.”

[Harry D]

Why were the contemporary police not impressed by Bury as a suspect?

[Errata]

Serial killers escalate. They don't de-escalate. They are exactly like heroin addicts. The same dose stops working after awhile. They have to increase the dose to feel the effects. At the very least they have to maintain a certain threshold just to get by.

Every serial killer has a fantasy they are trying to match. There is no point in murdering someone if the killer isn't going to at least nominally match the fantasy enough to get their fix. Five women get their throats slashed at with such determination that their heads almost pop off. Since he did it five (ish) times, that means it is an essential part of the fantasy. He's not going to leave that out with future victims, especially a victim he is so emotionally entangled with.

Attacking the throat is not enough. It's the easiest way to kill someone, a lot of people get strangled or garroted by people with no fetish for the neck. We aren't talking about something random like left pinkie fingers. Jack has to hack away at the neck. He has to. Bury didn't. It doesn't matter that it's his wife, it doesn't matter that he may not have planned to kill her. If Bury were Jack, the throat would have been decimated. As would the abdominal cavity. That's what Jack needs. That's what he does. Bury does not have that need, and doesn't do those things. Not Jack.

[Abby Normal]

Serial killers escalate. They don't de-escalate. They are exactly like heroin addicts. The same dose stops working after awhile. They have to increase the dose to feel the effects. At the very least they have to maintain a certain threshold just to get by.

Every serial killer has a fantasy they are trying to match. There is no point in murdering someone if the killer isn't going to at least nominally match the fantasy enough to get their fix. Five women get their throats slashed at with such determination that their heads almost pop off. Since he did it five (ish) times, that means it is an essential part of the fantasy. He's not going to leave that out with future victims, especially a victim he is so emotionally entangled with.

Attacking the throat is not enough. It's the easiest way to kill someone, a lot of people get strangled or garroted by people with no fetish for the neck. We aren't talking about something random like left pinkie fingers. Jack has to hack away at the neck. He has to. Bury didn't. It doesn't matter that it's his wife, it doesn't matter that he may not have planned to kill her. If Bury were Jack, the throat would have been decimated. As would the abdominal cavity. That's what Jack needs. That's what he does. Bury does not have that need, and doesn't do those things. Not Jack.

Hi errata
Then how do you explain the total difference in MO/sig in the family member killings that bookended kempers serial killing?

[gnote]

How many serial killers have murdered their spouses? (I'm not taking about bigamists and the like)

[Abby Normal]

How many serial killers have murdered their spouses? (I'm not taking about bigamists and the like)

chapman for one. and theres scores of "black widow" serial killers, both men and women, who have killed their spouses/sig others for some type of gain. Although I guess you could maybe count chapman in this category.

If you ask if how many NON-black widow serial killers (murderer of strangers) have also killed their spouses, which I think what you are getting at, I cant really think of any off hand. And that makes it very pertinent to Bury.
Big check mark against his candidacy for the ripper IMHO.

Its similar to an argument ive made earlier that Post mortem mutilator type serial killers rarely if ever are publically physically violent. And of Course Bury was pretty much-so another check mark against.

[gnote]

If you ask if how many NON-black widow serial killers (murderer of strangers) have also killed their spouses, which I think what you are getting at, I cant really think of any off hand. And that makes it very pertinent to Bury.
Big check mark against his candidacy for the ripper IMHO.

Its similar to an argument ive made earlier that Post mortem mutilator type serial killers rarely if ever are publically physically violent. And of Course Bury was pretty much-so another check mark against.

This is my line of thinking as well. It's not just MO/signature. I can understand why a serial killer of strangers if choosing to murder their spouse would utilize a different method.

Most married serial killers that i'm aware of try keep up the appearance of a family man. This also helps hide their more sinister inclinations (I'm not saying they get married solely for this purpose) and they basically lead a double life. I don't know of any that have killed their spouse. That alone doesn't eliminate Bury of course, but i believe it counts against him.

[Wyatt Earp]

Why were the contemporary police not impressed by Bury as a suspect?

Unfortunately, we don't know the details of the police investigation into Bury, or how thorough it was.

[Wyatt Earp]

Serial killers escalate. They don't de-escalate. They are exactly like heroin addicts. The same dose stops working after awhile. They have to increase the dose to feel the effects. At the very least they have to maintain a certain threshold just to get by.

Every serial killer has a fantasy they are trying to match. There is no point in murdering someone if the killer isn't going to at least nominally match the fantasy enough to get their fix. Five women get their throats slashed at with such determination that their heads almost pop off. Since he did it five (ish) times, that means it is an essential part of the fantasy. He's not going to leave that out with future victims, especially a victim he is so emotionally entangled with.

Attacking the throat is not enough. It's the easiest way to kill someone, a lot of people get strangled or garroted by people with no fetish for the neck. We aren't talking about something random like left pinkie fingers. Jack has to hack away at the neck. He has to. Bury didn't. It doesn't matter that it's his wife, it doesn't matter that he may not have planned to kill her. If Bury were Jack, the throat would have been decimated. As would the abdominal cavity. That's what Jack needs. That's what he does. Bury does not have that need, and doesn't do those things. Not Jack.

No, this is an incorrect assessment. It does not align with what we know about the behavior of serial killers:

1. MO can change from crime scene to crime scene. The absence of a cut throat does not rule Bury out.

2. Signature behaviors like mutilation can be deescalated in connection with the specific circumstances of a murder, and Bury had a strong situational incentive here to do exactly that.

[Wyatt Earp]

If you ask if how many NON-black widow serial killers (murderer of strangers) have also killed their spouses, which I think what you are getting at, I cant really think of any off hand. And that makes it very pertinent to Bury.
Big check mark against his candidacy for the ripper IMHO.

Its similar to an argument ive made earlier that Post mortem mutilator type serial killers rarely if ever are publically physically violent. And of Course Bury was pretty much-so another check mark against.

There is evidence (beginning with the murderer's own statement) that the Ellen Bury murder was not planned. If it was not planned, then it would not be correct to say that Bury targeted his spouse.

If during the course of an argument Ellen Bury threatened to go to the police, Bury might have felt he had no choice but to kill her then and there. This scenario cannot be ruled out.

[Wyatt Earp]

That being said, nothing ties Bury directly to any of the crimes, which is a biggie in my book.

so as ripper suspects go, hes weak like all the rest, just one of the less weak IMHO.

Inasmuch as direct evidence is not required to obtain a murder conviction, it's incorrect to claim that the lack of direct evidence against Bury makes him a weak suspect.