William Bury website

[Sam Flynn]

in the annals of true crime there has never been an instance of someone trying to copy another known murderers MO and or sig to throw off police or because they just wanted to.

I wouldn't be so sure. Besides, it's hardly beyond the bounds of possibility, and certainly within the capacity of a drunk to think of doing such a thing.

The term copy cat re serial murder is nonsense.

But then, Bury was probably not a serial killer.

[John Wheat]

In my opinion too little is made of the chalk writing's at the Bury's flat its just too much of a coincednce that what amounts to a confession is chalked at the last residence of a Ripper suspect who committed a Ripper like murder.

[Sam Flynn]

The chalked writing could also have been part of a feeble attempt to pin the murder on the Ripper.

[rjpalmer]

in the annals of true crime there has never been an instance of someone trying to copy another known murderers MO and or sig to throw off police or because they just wanted to.

Hi Abby, well, if you believe that, then you haven't read enough "true crime." One example, among others, is the case of Jeffery MacDonald, M.D., from February, 1970, when the "Charles Manson"/Helter Skelter murders were still very much in the news. MacDonald's wife and children were horrifically murdered, stabbed repeatedly with knives and ice picks. The word "Pig" was written on the wall in blood. I think his wife was stabbed some 40 times. A dazed and injured MacDonald claimed the house had been invaded in the middle of the night by hippies, who then attacked them. One of these long-haired freaks supposedly said "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs."


Not surprisingly, the police and the prosecutors didn't believe MacDonald's account and he was ultimately convicted and is still in prison, though he does have his supporters. In searching the house after the murders, the police found a magazine with a prominent article about the Manson murders. They concluded that MacDonald lost it, killed his wife, then his children, and then staged the scene to look like it was done by drug-crazed hippies because of the great prominence given to the Tate/Labianca murders in the press.

Besides "signature" is really so much psychobabble. The University of Liverpool did a study and concluded it was pseudo-science and cannot be relied upon. All the best.

[John Wheat]

The chalked writing could also have been part of a feeble attempt to pin the murder on the Ripper.

But they dated from before the murder Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

But they dated from before the murder Sam.

Are we absolutely sure? Not that it matters; semi-literate graffiti scrawled on a wall before he killed Ellen is hardly likely to be a confession on Bury's part.

[John Wheat]

Are we absolutely sure? Not that it matters; semi-literate graffiti scrawled on a wall before he killed Ellen is hardly likely to be a confession on Bury's part.

Well the graffiti was reportedly much older than the murder. I still think Bury or Ellen wrote the graffiti which must increase his likeliness of being the Ripper. Local kids or whoever else being responsible just doesn't seem that likely.

[Sam Flynn]

Hundreds of people claimed to be the Ripper in all those hoax letters, but it's a safe bet that none of those was a confession by the killer himself. Some people told the police that they were the Ripper, when they weren't.

[John Wheat]

Hundreds of people claimed to be the Ripper in all those hoax letters, but it's a safe bet that none of those was a confession by the killer himself. Some people told the police that they were the Ripper, when they weren't.

But how many of them murdered there wife in a Ripper like fashion?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, well, if you believe that, then you haven't read enough "true crime." One example, among others, is the case of Jeffery MacDonald, M.D., from February, 1970, when the "Charles Manson"/Helter Skelter murders were still very much in the news. MacDonald's wife and children were horrifically murdered, stabbed repeatedly with knives and ice picks. The word "Pig" was written on the wall in blood. I think his wife was stabbed some 40 times. A dazed and injured MacDonald claimed the house had been invaded in the middle of the night by hippies, who then attacked them. One of these long-haired freaks supposedly said "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs."


Not surprisingly, the police and the prosecutors didn't believe MacDonald's account and he was ultimately convicted and is still in prison, though he does have his supporters. In searching the house after the murders, the police found a magazine with a prominent article about the Manson murders. They concluded that MacDonald lost it, killed his wife, then his children, and then staged the scene to look like it was done by drug-crazed hippies because of the great prominence given to the Tate/Labianca murders in the press.

Besides "signature" is really so much psychobabble. The University of Liverpool did a study and concluded it was pseudo-science and cannot be relied upon. All the best.

Hi rj
thanks for posting i had never heard about that case. I stand corrected.

[APerno]

Well the graffiti was reportedly much older than the murder. I still think Bury or Ellen wrote the graffiti which must increase his likeliness of being the Ripper. Local kids or whoever else being responsible just doesn't seem that likely.

I agree, personally I think Bury's mind snapped. They say that after the murder and right up to the night before his hanging Bury had been very cooperative with the police, but the night before (with CID hiding behind a wall listening) hangman Berry tried to get Bury to confess to the Whitechapel murders, at which point Bury lost control of himself and started spiting all kinds of verbal abuse at Berry, most of which sounded like the trash from the letters posted in the newspapers. Considering this behavior I think Bury may well have been obsessed with JTR and was likely the one who wrote the graffiti.

But I did read one source (and I am embarrassed to say I can't remember where I read it,) that the police had left the house unattended and when they returned it was over run by trill seekers, and it was then that they discovered the graffiti. But to repeat myself, I think Bury's mind had snapped and he was the one writing the graffiti.

Also I am not sure if this is true or not, but Bury supposedly went to the police station (after sobering up) and explained to the cops that his wife was dead and he needed assistance. As he and the police were walking back to the scene Bury quietly added something to the effect: 'Oh, by the way I kind of cut her open after she was dead.' I would love to have seen the look on the cops face during that walk to the apartment.

[Wyatt Earp]

Like I said, it was at most an attempt at a copycat, and not a very good one at that. It's still possible that it was, in the sense of "Oh $hit, I've strangled her! I know, I'll cut her belly a bit to make it look like the Ripper did it"

It isn’t believable that a drunk man who had never demonstrated any particular interest in the Ripper murders would produce such a remarkably close match with the Ripper’s complex combination of signature characteristics. Again, it’s quite possible that this combination was only seen elsewhere with certain Whitechapel victims out of the entire pool of murders committed in Victorian Britain.

Further, if Bury had wanted to pin this murder on the Ripper, he would have cut Ellen’s throat.

Finally, the Ripper wasn’t murdering women all the way up in Dundee, he was murdering women in the East End of London. It simply isn’t believable that Bury would have tried to pin this murder on the Ripper, and in fact he did not do so when he went to the police station.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. With respect to McKenzie, there is no obvious reason why her murderer should have toned down the mutilations. To say that the Ripper was simply having a “bad day” is to provide no explanation at all. When it comes to the Ellen Bury and Alice McKenzie murders, it’s not a pick ‘em. The Ellen Bury murder can be linked to the Ripper’s signature, and the Alice McKenzie murder cannot.

You can’t expect to have your cake and eat it. If you say that signatures/MO’s can change due to a change in the killers circumstances then we simply can’t say, because none of us were there, that the Ripper might not have been affected by ‘circumstances’ when he killed Mackenzie (and I’m not saying that he did.) What if he’d previously sustained an injury which meant that he couldn’t apply enough pressure with the knife. He may also have forgotten to sharpen the blade. A prostitute killed and left on display on a London street certainly looks more ‘ripper’ than a woman in Scotland killed and stuffed into a trunk.

Bury is a possible suspect. Better than most named ones yes. But a possible suspect nonetheless. We should be wary of overconfidence.

[Sam Flynn]

It isn’t believable that a drunk man who had never demonstrated any particular interest in the Ripper murders would produce such a remarkably close match with the Ripper’s complex combination of signature characteristics.

But I don't see it as a remarkably close match. There are a couple of cuts to the abdomen - one deep but short, the other longer but superficial - but that's about it.

Further, if Bury had wanted to pin this murder on the Ripper, he would have cut Ellen’s throat.

The Ripper was known primarily as someone who roughly cut open women's abdomens, hence the nickname I guess.

Finally, the Ripper wasn’t murdering women all the way up in Dundee, he was murdering women in the East End of London.

Two or three parishes removed from Bury's.

It simply isn’t believable that Bury would have tried to pin this murder on the Ripper, and in fact he did not do so when he went to the police station.

He was a drunk who lost it and killed his wife. It's not inconceivable that he freaked when he realised what he'd done and, in his panic, thought of pinning the murder on the Ripper. When he came to his senses, perhaps he realised that this would never work, and stuffed Ellen into a trunk while he thought of another plan; resignedly going to the police only when he realised there was no way out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why didn’t Bury the ripper cut Ellen’s throat which is the one undeniable, specific and consistent feature of the ripper murders?