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  • #76
    Hi Wyatt,

    I'm curious to hear more on the opinions of the two UK lawyers you cite. Can you possibly provide a link or other details? I'm largely confident the JTR murders are settled as well - but I fear most people don't want to hear that.

    EDIT: Here's a link with some of the details I believe Wyatt was referring to:
    https://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/2...ripper-theory/

    and

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...ged-in-dundee/
    Last edited by Single-O-Seven; 01-27-2019, 10:40 PM.

    Comment


    • #77
      A seasoned analyst like Keppel understands that a signature characteristic can be absent or it can be reduced or modified in its expression in connection with the specific circumstances of a murder, and we have a whoppingchange of circumstances at Princes Street, namely, the murder occurred at the subject’s residence, and the subject was known by name to be living there by others in the area. Since these circumstances could reasonably have compelled William Bury to significantly reduce his mutilations, thus affecting the presence or degree of overkill, a seasoned analyst would not attach importance to the lower level of violence to the victim’s body at Princes Street. By the way, overkill may well have been present at the Ellen Bury crime scene. Dr. Henry Littlejohn gave his professional assessment that Ellen Bury would not have survived her mutilations. So while there was no escalation in overkill, we could indeed have a yes to overkill itself being present here
      Surely this is a problem in itself when trying to decide if any victim is part of a series? What we are saying, in effect is, that the signs are there to read....unless. Why then can’t we say that it’s possible for other murders to have occurred in the series but unknown external circumstances in the killers life meant that things changed dramatically leaving those murders seemingly unconnected?
      Regards

      Herlock




      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

      Comment


      • #78
        Yes—the important point here, per Keppel et al., is that “this killer obviously left the victims where others would find them.” William Bury accomplished this in Dundee by telling the police the exact location of Ellen Bury’s body.
        In a trunk isn’t ‘on display’ by any normal understanding of the phrase. By that definition any corpse would have to be considered ‘on display’ if it hadn’t been buried or destroyed in some other way.

        Left in the street, skirts lifted, legs spread is a world of difference between stuffed into a trunk. This is simply shoehorning in my opinion.
        Regards

        Herlock




        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

        Comment


        • #79
          . Yes—the Ellen Bury murder was a sexualized murder. Her genital mutilations are described in the two medical reports. When we then find her body in the position that we find it in, when she could have been placed into the trunk in any one of a number of different ways, it is obvious what Bury was doing. Any seasoned analyst would immediately recognize this as sexually degrading posing of the victim’s body. In addition, William Bury tilted Ellen Bury’s head to one side, as was done with a number of the Whitechapel victims. This confirms that William Bury was deliberately manipulating the appearance of Ellen Bury’s body, that is, that he was engaged in posing behavior.
          You appear to be making the rather baffling suggestion that she was stuffed into a trunk in a sexually degrading pose? Being stuffed into a trunk is simply being stuffed into a trunk I’m afraid. Too much is being read into this and it smacks again of shoehorning.
          Regards

          Herlock




          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

          Comment


          • #80
            I really do think that this case is over, with only the loose ends of the Stride and McKenzie murders to be tied up. In support of my view I’d point out that last year, two distinguished lawyers in the U.K., men familiar with criminal evidence and criminal law, came forward to affirm that an identification has been made in this case, and that Bury can now be named as the Ripper. The signature evidence was one of the things cited. Any Ripperologist in 2019 can responsibly hold the view that this case is already solved.
            Im sorry but you appear to be inhabiting a different world. This case is nowhere near solved. Bury is worth looking at of course but come on this is overconfidence taken to extremes. The two lawyers who made those comments have done themselves no favours I’m afraid. Likelihood of Bury being the ripper.....south of 5 percent. Still higher than most but that’s all. I’m afraid you’ve saddled your horse and are intent on riding it blinkered to the end.
            Regards

            Herlock




            “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
            “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
            “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
            “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
            “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

            Comment


            • #81
              Len Murray –the last surviving Scottish lawyer who defended clients in capital murder cases- who says Michael has finally solved the case “not just beyond reasonable doubt but beyond all doubt”.
              I hope I’ll never call on him to defend me. Overconfidence bordering on stupidity.
              Regards

              Herlock




              “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
              “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
              “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
              “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
              “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                Likelihood of Bury being the ripper.....south of 5 percent.
                That seems ridiculously low, Herlock. Bury's the only named suspect we know guilty of committing a Ripper-esque murder who can be tied to the East End during the Autumn of Terror. There are good arguments for Ellen Bury's lack of overkill, and the only Ripper murder that happened after his death (McKenzie) is a much disputed one.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I don't see Ellen's murder as particularly ripperesque, TBH and, whilst Bury can be placed in the East End, he was based in Bromley-by-Bow, not Whitechapel/Spitalfields. Bromley adjoined Poplar, and the districts of Limehouse, Shadwell and Ratcliff (to name three) lay between Bury's stomping-ground and JTR's killing fields. There were plenty of unfortunates/prostitutes in those districts in their own right, and one would think that a killer of unfortunates would have claimed a fair few victims there, rather than venture further West to indulge his urges.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Yes, but it's not disputed that Bury did spend much of his time in Whitechapel, drinking and interacting with prostitutes. He could have done that closer to home too, but didn't. Or maybe he did, who knows? But the fact remains that he did regularly attend and work in Whitechapel. Had he killed closer to home perhaps there was a better chance he would have been recognized by neighbours or people who could name him? He's known to have had the means to travel between Bow and Whitechapel, so the distance is of little consequence.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Single-O-Seven View Post
                      Yes, but it's not disputed that Bury did spend much of his time in Whitechapel, drinking and interacting with prostitutes. He could have done that closer to home too, but didn't. Or maybe he did, who knows? But the fact remains that he did regularly attend and work in Whitechapel. Had he killed closer to home perhaps there was a better chance he would have been recognized by neighbours or people who could name him? He's known to have had the means to travel between Bow and Whitechapel, so the distance is of little consequence.
                      There were tens of thousands of people closer to home, so it's unlikely that he'd have stood out amongst the crowd; on the contrary, he could have saved himself several trips and still melted into the darkness with impunity. And it's hard to imagine him spending more time hanging about the pubs and prostitutes of Whitechapel than those closer to home; it's not as if Bromley and its immediate neighbours would have been devoid of such diversions.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Single-O-Seven View Post
                        Yes, but it's not disputed that Bury did spend much of his time in Whitechapel, drinking and interacting with prostitutes. He could have done that closer to home too, but didn't. Or maybe he did, who knows? But the fact remains that he did regularly attend and work in Whitechapel. Had he killed closer to home perhaps there was a better chance he would have been recognized by neighbours or people who could name him? He's known to have had the means to travel between Bow and Whitechapel, so the distance is of little consequence.
                        Good points. Although, with the heightened police presence and vigilance committee in Whitechapel, it's questionable that Bury would keep to the same hotzone if he could avoid it. That would seem to speak more to a Spitalfields/Whitechapel resident.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                          Good points. Although, with the heightened police presence and vigilance committee in Whitechapel, it's questionable that Bury would keep to the same hotzone if he could avoid it. That would seem to speak more to a Spitalfields/Whitechapel resident.
                          I think the heightened police/vigilance speaks to why JTR was so quiet throughout October. He returned on one occasion in November, after which the vigilance fever spiked again - and the Ripper went quiet, seemingly permanently.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            The graffiti is something that's often overlooked in William Bury's case.

                            There were two chalked messages at the back of the Bury's apartment: "jack ripper is at the back of this door" and "jack ripper is in this seller"(sic)

                            It does seem like the kind of thing children would write. However, as policemen were stationed at the apartment following the murder, it's doubtful that anyone other than William or Ellen wrote it. I've seen it theorised that Bury wrote it in a feeble/drunken attempt to deflect blame onto the Ripper, before he went with Plan B.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              I don't see Ellen's murder as particularly ripperesque, TBH
                              I think a murder where the throat is targeted together with abdominal post-mortem mutilation must be considered 'Ripper-esque'. If Ellen's injuries had been as severe as Chapman, Eddowes etc. we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Be that as it may, the fact Ellen's injuries were inflicted shortly after death would suggest an impulsive reaction on Bury's part rather than a planned one.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                                I think a murder where the throat is targeted together with abdominal post-mortem mutilation must be considered 'Ripper-esque'. If Ellen's injuries had been as severe as Chapman, Eddowes etc. we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Be that as it may, the fact Ellen's injuries were inflicted shortly after death would suggest an impulsive reaction on Bury's part rather than a planned one.
                                And it's that bizarre impulse that is most suggestive. A rare fetish he just had to satisfy, even though he had to know how it would look once she was discovered. Which is why I believe he pulled back before going all out in the manner of Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly.

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