William Bury website

[Sam Flynn]

String/rope, whatever. It wasn't a knife, that's for sure.

[John Wheat]

But Bury did strangle his wife and then stab her in the abdomen after death.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. We can use such things to make any number of suspects fit, and we have to draw the line somewhere.

Exactly Gareth.

How can we say ‘well Bury ticks certain recognised boxes that would apply to the ripper but, when he doesn’t tick a box, we can chalk it down to circumstances then move on?’ There could be any number of unknown circumstances for a killer at any given time which could account for a difference which might lead us away from connecting a suspect to a series. If it’s unknown to us how do we decide?

[Sam Flynn]

But Bury did strangle his wife and then stab her in the abdomen after death.

There's another point of difference. Jack the Ripper wasn't really a stabber; he inflicted long, deep cuts on the throats and abdomens of his victims.

[Single-O-Seven]

There's another point of difference. Jack the Ripper wasn't really a stabber; he inflicted long, deep cuts on the throats and abdomens of his victims.

I suppose it depends if you consider Millwood and Tabram as victims, too. I tend to, though I know it's a contentious issue.

[Sam Flynn]

I suppose it depends if you consider Millwood and Tabram as victims, too. I tend to, though I know it's a contentious issue.

Indeed, but I don't count either as a Ripper victim. Even if I did, it seems that he moved firmly away from stabbing for the four or five consecutive murders he went on to commit between 31st Aug and 9th November 1888.

[Wyatt Earp]

Here is a description of the major wound to Ellen's abdomen, from the medical report prepared by Templeman and Stalker. I think most people would describe this as a "cut" and not a "stab."

"There was an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen, extending downwards from the umbilicus for four and a half inches. It penetrated the abdominal cavity, and through it protruded part of the omentum, and about a foot of intestine, part of which was dry and black from exposure to the air. This cut was ragged towards the lower part."

[Sam Flynn]

Here is a description of the major wound to Ellen's abdomen, from the medical report prepared by Templeman and Stalker. I think most people would describe this as a "cut" and not a "stab."

I'm not denying that, and nor have I ever. She was cut, but she was also garotted and sustained stab wounds from a penknife.

"There was an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen, extending downwards from the umbilicus for four and a half inches. It penetrated the abdominal cavity, and through it protruded part of the omentum, and about a foot of intestine, part of which was dry and black from exposure to the air."

Indeed. One 4.5" cut penetrating the abdominal wall, and one longer cut which scored the skin of her belly as one might score a pork rind. None of this looks like the Ripper's work to me.

[Abby Normal]

I suppose it depends if you consider Millwood and Tabram as victims, too. I tend to, though I know it's a contentious issue.

Hi Single
I do too-it shows a natural progression/ escalation. of course in ellens case there is deviation in that, but seeing as she was his wife and also differing circs it may account for it.

[etenguy]

We can use such things to make any number of suspects fit, and we have to draw the line somewhere. Jack the Ripper drew very firm, decisive lines across his victims' throats, and he didn't use a piece of string to do so.

I think this is a little overstated. I'm not a Bury champion, but there are not any number of potential suspects that match so closely the attack methodology of the ripper. I appreciate the differences also, the use of a ligature and not a knife and the reduced level of mutilation, but the similarities in style (signature) are striking, if toned down.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't see toned down similarities but, at best, a tentative attempt at a copycat crime - and not a very good one at that.

[Wyatt Earp]

I don't see toned down similarities but, at best, a tentative attempt at a copycat crime - and not a very good one at that.

A copycat explanation of the Ellen Bury murder can be safely excluded.

• Victim’s throat not cut
• Victim’s body not abandoned
• Subject did not go to police with story that Jack the Ripper murdered his spouse
• Signature match too precise for murder to be lazy knockoff (e.g., presence of incapacitation); the copycat murderer of Alice McKenzie went to great lengths to simulate a Ripper murder, but even he couldn’t get this right
• Subject demonstrated no particular interest in the Jack the Ripper murders prior to spouse’s murder (no collection of Jack the Ripper newspaper clippings, no evidence from trial of interest in Jack the Ripper case, when subject and spouse were asked about the Whitechapel murders by resident of Dundee, subject replied, “I do not know so much about that”)
• Subject did not confess to being a copycat nor demonstrate any interest in the Jack the Ripper murders following his conviction
• Subject can be linked to Whitechapel prior to the Jack the Ripper murders
• Subject can be linked to prostitutes prior to the Jack the Ripper murders
• Subject aligns exceptionally well with key eyewitness descriptions in the Jack the Ripper case
• Main set of mutilations conducted at approximate time of death; if planned copycat murder, victim’s throat would have been cut at time of murder
• Items in trunk align with items known to be missing (two rings) and presumed to be missing (thimble) from Annie Chapman

[Sam Flynn]

Like I said, it was at most an attempt at a copycat, and not a very good one at that. It's still possible that it was, in the sense of "Oh $hit, I've strangled her! I know, I'll cut her belly a bit to make it look like the Ripper did it"

[Abby Normal]

Theres no such thing as "copycat" murders. either bury was the ripper hence the similarities or he wasn't and its just a coincidence.
in the annals of true crime there has never been an instance of someone trying to copy another known murderers MO and or sig to throw off police or because they just wanted to. The psychology of a serial killer goes much deeper than that and they do what they do because of complicated and deep seated fantasy and urges. The term copy cat re serial murder is nonsense.

[Single-O-Seven]

And if Bury is JTR, we run into the issue of "copycat" (or an attempted one) with regard to McKenzie.