Suspect Witnesses?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What if Schwartz's account took place whilst Brown was in the shop, RD? At least 3-4 minutes would have been enough for it to begin & end. Just (another) thought.

Then we would need to explain why Brown's timing places them there at about 12:50, whereas the young woman referred to having been at their location for about 20 minutes prior to the alarm of murder.

We would also need to explain why Stride is now at the board school corner, or instead why Brown thought Stride looked like a young woman.

[FISHY1118]

What if Schwartz's account took place whilst Brown was in the shop, RD? At least 3-4 minutes would have been enough for it to begin & end. Just (another) thought.

It could just as easy have been over in 60 secs.

[c.d.]

Perhaps someone could explain why our non-English speaker was able to interpret the following ...

... but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder.

Perhaps we can turn to the immortal words of Bob Dylan -- "You don't need a weatherman to know which way wind blows."

I would say there are certain experiences which everyone pretty much agrees on. For example, "it sounded like an argument", "he seemed to be really drunk", "he seemed very angry", "he seemed to be spoiling for a fight", "it looked like he was flirting with her", "it looks like it is going to rain" etc.

Even children can give evidence in court.

As for the above example you picked out, notice he said "some sort" of warning. He couldn't say what it actually was. And "as if" to attack the intruder not he attacked the intruder. Everything else in the sentence would be obvious to anyone not visually impaired which apparently Schwartz was not.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Your other claim is that this was a little street hassle. What practical difference does an understanding of English make to 'interpreting' that?

I never claimed that this was a little street hassle. Obviously I have no way of knowing with absolute certainty. My opinion is that this was just a little street hassle.

And I am not aware of Schwartz ever definitively describing what he saw as in I witnessed a murder/domestic argument/street hassle. Which is why Swanson allowed for the possibility of a second man being Stride's murderer and not the B.S. man.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

When she goes somewhere else, the 10-minute doorstep vigil must start. There is not enough remaining time for these things to occur consecutively.

The other issue is that by supposing she goes somewhere else, after standing in the gateway, Stride's gateway vigil is left unexplained. Not only that but the BS man's motivation for acting violently to her, is also left unexplained.

See my response to c.d. for the 1st paragraph, For the 2nd, those 2 things are unexplained in any case.

[Lewis C]

Everything can be explained. You just don’t like the answers because they don’t point to some kind of plot.

Hi Herlock,

I guess I understood what he meant by unexplained differently than you did. When I said that they are unexplained, I meant that we don't know what the explanation is. But when you say everything can be explained, if you just mean that a plausible explanation can be had, I agree with that.

[Lewis C]

Don't tell me you're resorting to a 'someone lied' theory? Expect to hear from Wickerman very soon.

A witness lying isn't the same thing as a potential witness keeping his mouth shut.

[Wickerman]

Or maybe, just maybe Israel Schwartz was on his way home and witnessed an assault near a social club on Berner Street. He then learned about a murder at said social club the next day so reported what he had seen to the Police, with the help of a friend who interpreted for him.

It's not that complicated.

Maybe, he did witness an assault as described, but as he did not read or speak English, he had no idea which street he was passing through.
Later that day, he heard tales of a murder in Berner St. - he assumed that was what he saw.
Yet, not one witness ever mentioned him passing through Berner St.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Maybe, he did witness an assault as described, but as he did not read or speak English, he had no idea which street he was passing through.
Later that day, he heard tales of a murder in Berner St. - he assumed that was what he saw.
Yet, not one witness ever mentioned him passing through Berner St.

I don't understand the concept that "he had no idea which street he was passing through" as he was said to have been living in Berner Street.

[New Waterloo]

I had considered that, but when Brown left the Chandler's shop less than 5 minutes later (he said 4 minutes) there was a couple he walked past and saw standing bear the board school in Fairclough St, who don't appear to have been there when Brown was on his way to the Chandler's shop 4 minutes earlier.

That means that the couple he saw arrived in Fairclough Street when Brown was in the shop.

And yet this couple (if they're the same couple that spoke to Mortimer) after the murder, didn't see or hear the assault that Schwartz claimed happened.

On that basis, I find it unlikely that the assault occurred after Brown.

In fact there's only a maximum of a 5 minute window between Eagle walking into the yard at 12.40am and Brown walking west across the bottom of the junction with Fairclough and Berner St to then walk into the Chandler's shop at 12.45am.

The Schwartz incident couldn't have occurred at 12.45am, or once Brown, the couple on the corner, and Mortimer are all within audio or visual proximity of where and when the assault took place.

The only time that the Schwartz incident could have happened realistically, is 12.41am-12.44am, meaning that both Brown and Eagle had just missed the assault.

But of course, if the assault never happened, then nothing happened between 12.40am when Eagle walked into the yard, to the point when Mortimer was at her door and saw Goldstein walk south past the club and around the corner of the board school, which was at a time when Mortimer was at her door.

We know that Mortimer didn't see Eagle or Lave, so she wasn't at her door until after 12.40am.

With the Schwartz story omitted, the street was quiet until the body was found around 1am.

That validates Mortimer's "most of the time" standing at her door. I.e from 12.42am to 12.59am.

That's 17 minutes out of 30

"Most of the time"

We also can be sure that the couple on the corner who Brown saw were STILL there after Stride was found, because Mortimer states herself that the couple told her they were there both BEFORE AND AFTER the murder.

So once the couple seen by Brown arrive at that corner just before Brown leaves the shop at 12.50am, they STAY there and are present after the body is found just 10 minutes later

It means that Brown misidentifed Stride as standing in Fariclough Street.

Otherwise we have 2 couples standing in the same place

So when Mortimer gets to her door a few minutes after Eagle walks into the yard, Morimer also stays there and her vigil proves that the killer didn't walk IN OR OUT of the yard after 12.42am.

Mortimer never sees the couple before the murder because they came from Fariclough Street; ergo from the same direction that Brown had walked from his house.

This is feasible but we are starting to multiply couples again. Brown leaves his house as close as can be to where Spooner and his girlfriend are standing. Browns house adjoins the Beehive Pub. So we have two couple in that part of Fairclough Street at the same time. My suggestion has always been that Spooner and his girlfriend had drifted the short distance towards Berner/Fairclough junction and it was them who were seen by Brown although Spooner doesn't say this. I cannot believe we have two couples in that small area at the same time. If the woman seen by Brown is not Stride or Spooners girlfriend then including Stride and her companion Parcelman we have at least 3 couples in quite a small area. Unless my brain is getting confused which is not unusual.

And Mortimer doesn't notice Brown because he walks along the bottom of the street and doesn't go anywhere near the yard.

So to summarise, the only time that the Schwartz assault could have taken place was 12.41am - 12.44am

But I personally think Schwartz lied and that there was no assault.

BUT crucially, and here's the crux of it...


The murder occurred at THE SAME TIME that Schwartz lied about what he saw.

But why?

Well, the killer didn't leave the yard once Mortimer was at her door.

Schwartz tells us that a drunken gentile assaulted Stride.


But he can't say he witnessed the murder.


So what's he playing at?

Well, firstly he's deflecting from the idea that a Jew could have been the killer, because his story clearly depicts a drunk gentile shouting an anti-semitic slur.

Secondly, by stating that he sees an assault and not a murder, he is delaying the kill time and implying that the woman was still alive at 12.45am when she was assaulted.

And thirdly, he is using BS Man as a bridge between Eagle and Lave having gone into the yard, and the assault occurring around 5 minutes AFTER Eagle had already gone inside the club.

It also seems to me that Parcelman is unlikely to have been the killer, because he must have been aware that he had been spotted by Pc Smith.

So Schwartz becomes a crucial part in deflecting from a Jewish club member having been the killer.

Stride was killed between 12.40am - 12.45am, meaning that Mortimer, Brown, and the couple on the corner aren't relevant in terms of the killer being around.

He was already gone before then

But there's another tantalising idea that I had...

What if Parcel man never existed.

And what if Pc Smith was actually in Berner Street 5 minutes later than he said he was.

It was claimed in the press thet Mortimer heard the measured heavy trap of footsteps pass her door, just before she came to her door.

Could that make Pc Smith the killer?

Stride the informant and a dodgy copper?

Pc Smith was late when he got back to the top of Berner Street afte the body had been found; as though he was virtually the last one to arrive and find out.

Could Mortimer have heard the killer cop just moments after he walked away from cutting Strides throat?

PC Smith is technically the last person to see Stride alive.

I wonder.


Lots to ponder

Apologies but not sure if I have inserted my comment correctly, may have messed it up

NW

[Sunny Delight]

Maybe, he did witness an assault as described, but as he did not read or speak English, he had no idea which street he was passing through.
Later that day, he heard tales of a murder in Berner St. - he assumed that was what he saw.
Yet, not one witness ever mentioned him passing through Berner St.

So was he just wandering aimlessly around Whitechapel with no clue what street he was on or where he was going? I think that is far fetched to say the least but even if it were the case- he would have known where the club was or we would assume he did as it was well known. So if he heard of the murder beside the club then he goes to Police as he remembers seeing an incident take place there at about 12:45am.

[Sunny Delight]

I don't understand the concept that "he had no idea which street he was passing through" as he was said to have been living in Berner Street.

Was he? I cant recall that being confirmed but it was in a paper? Makes me comment above obsolete.

[Sunny Delight]

Ah but it is when he claimed he witnessed an assault that happened around 12.45am, which clashes with both Brown and Mortimer, and possibly the couple on the corner.

And when nobody saw or heard anything he claimed happened...including Bs man, Pipeman, and anti-semitic slur and a partiial chase down the road.

And when it is reported in the newspaper that there was some questioning as to the truth of his story.

And when he was said to have run as far as the train line...that doesn't fit with the geography of the area

And when his statement has Pipeman on the wrong side of the road.

And when he can't be traced to 22 Ellen Street

And when he's described specifically as "theatrical"

And when he just seems to disappear

And when he can't be traced 137 years later.

And when he didn't appear at the inquest


But hey ho; if y'all think that there's nothing suspicious...


Sometimes we have to be brave and brake the wheel in order to see what other options and possibilities there are.
If we accept there's nothing suspicious, untoward and everything is as we've all been told over the past century and more, then we will never have the open mindedness to really see what's going on.


It takes a leap of faith

All timings in that era are estimates. Brown in particular could have been 5-10 minutes out as he was just estimating off how long he felt he had been home. Hardly accurate. Mortimer as well gives conflicting info that is incredibly difficult to work out but in my opinion she was likely at her door from around 12:45-12:55am, where she saw Leon Goldstein and then went inside for 5 minutes before hearing Diemschutz arrived. I think we can definitively place her at her door at 12:55am because Goldstein co-orborates her statement. The question with Mortimer is- did she come to the door after hearing PC Smith or BS man pass her door. I believe it was the latter.

The Geography of the area is not possible for us to be fully accurate about, solely going on maps. That is even the case today and we have Satillite navigation.

Why is Pipeman on the 'wrong side of the road'. Wrong how? He merely stated what he saw. How could he be on the wrong side.

Being described as theatrical and being described as someone who dressed as though they were in a theatrical line of work are two completely different things.

We can't track down Mary Kelly either in the records. So what does that make her? A figment of our imagination?

And lastly there is conflicting info about the Inquest where Swanson talks about his 'statement' at the Inquest so possibly he was allowed to give evidence in secret or had someone translate an actual statement for him to submit.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What time did Smith pass - we don’t know. Was the woman across the road Stride - we don’t know. What time did Fanny Mortimer come onto her doorstep - we don’t know. What time did Lave come out - we don’t know. What time did Lave go back inside - we don’t know. What time did Eagle return - we don’t know. What time did Leon Goldstein pass - we don’t know. What time did Fanny Mortimer go back indoors - we don’t know. What time did Stride arrive at the gateway - we don’t know. What time did BS man enter Berner Street (followed by Schwartz - we don’t know. What time did Brown go for his supper - we don’t know. Who was the couple that he saw - we don’t know. What time did he return home - we don’t know. Where idi Pipeman arrive from - we don’t know. What time did Schwartz exit Berner Street - we don’t know. Where did Pipeman go - we don’t know. Did BS man kill Strode - we don’t know. What time did Diemschitz discover the body - we don’t know. What time did Diemschitz return to the yard with Spooner - we don’t know. What time did Lamb arrive at the yard - we don’t know. What time did Smith arrive - we don’t know.


That’s a reasonable list of unknowns and we know that more could be added and yet we constantly see people asking incredulously how it’s possible that certain people could have missed seeing each other or how an incident of a very few seconds went unseen or unheard. We get free reign for conspiracy theories. Utterly bizarrely we get people expressing disbelief that a woman (probably with help from family/friends) could move a few, probably, meagre possessions from one lodging to another a short distance away while her husband is out (possibly working)

Things occurred in Berner Street as explained by the record that has been left to us and we don’t have a single reason to doubt it. So people start with the conspiracies. Why?

[The Rookie Detective]

All timings in that era are estimates. Brown in particular could have been 5-10 minutes out as he was just estimating off how long he felt he had been home. Hardly accurate. Mortimer as well gives conflicting info that is incredibly difficult to work out but in my opinion she was likely at her door from around 12:45-12:55am, where she saw Leon Goldstein and then went inside for 5 minutes before hearing Diemschutz arrived. I think we can definitively place her at her door at 12:55am because Goldstein co-orborates her statement. The question with Mortimer is- did she come to the door after hearing PC Smith or BS man pass her door. I believe it was the latter.

The Geography of the area is not possible for us to be fully accurate about, solely going on maps. That is even the case today and we have Satillite navigation.

Why is Pipeman on the 'wrong side of the road'. Wrong how? He merely stated what he saw. How could he be on the wrong side.

Being described as theatrical and being described as someone who dressed as though they were in a theatrical line of work are two completely different things.

We can't track down Mary Kelly either in the records. So what does that make her? A figment of our imagination?

And lastly there is conflicting info about the Inquest where Swanson talks about his 'statement' at the Inquest so possibly he was allowed to give evidence in secret or had someone translate an actual statement for him to submit.

You make some excellent points.

You are of course correct in that timings are all estimations.

But it's not the timing, it's the chronology and sequence of events that's the key.

The point is that regardless of timings, Schwartz and Brown can't occupy the same space at the same time.

So if the assault occurred at 12.45am and Brown passed the junction at 12.45am, then we can be sure that one of them at least must be slightly out on their timings.

So who then corroborates who?

Well, Mortimer actually said "most of the time" and was never quoted as saying "10 minutes" so if we choose to believe her judgement and integrity, we need to work out the longest period of time that Mortimer could have been at her door between 12.30am--1am

So if we take a 30 minute time period, then mathematically 16 minutes out 0f 30, is "most of the time" ergo, more than half.
However, we also need to factor in exaggeration and poor awareness of time, and thus; what is the least amount of time from 30 minutes that someone could stand at a door and still feel that they were there "most of the time?"

I would suggest that 12 minutes out of 30 is pushing that boundary, however it is still possible that if Mortimer was wrong, then 12 minutes is the very least amount of time that she could have been at her door and still feel she was the most of the time.

So we need to allocate at least 12 minutes for Mortimer.

So if Mortimer goes inside just before Diemschitz passes by (she never mentions seeing him) at around 1am, then we can use 12.59am as the latest that Mortimer went inside.

And then we work back 12 minutes to 12.47am

That's the absolute latest that Mortimer could have come to her door.

She also saw Goldstein, so we know that he passed down the street when she was standing at her door at some point between 12.47am to 12.59am

Mortimer also states that there was a couple standing at the corner who were there both before and after the murder was discovered.

This is because the female from the couple Mortimer claimed spoke to her after the body had been found.

It was also reported that the couple on the corner were there for around "20 minutes."

This 20 minutes must include the time after Stride is found.

And again, the couple may have exaggerated and been wrong about 20 minutes.

Like Mortimer, it may have been as little as 12 minutes, rather than 20.

So that puts the couple on the corner at 12.50am at the very latest, based on a 12 minute period rather than 20 as the couple stated and the body being found at 1.02am

So we have Mortimer corroborating a couple and a couple standing in the corner around "20 yards away" who are there by 12.50am at the very latest.

But who can corroborate a couple standing on the corner at 12.50am?

Well...Brown.

He estimates 12.50am based on the fact he saw the couple on his way back from the Chandler's shop, after he had been in there for "4 minutes".

So again, why 4 minutes?

Well 4 minutes is another way of saying LESS than 5 minutes. Brown felt it was 4 minutes so its likely it wasn't longer than 5, and possibly as little as 3 minutes.

So let's use 3 minutes as a minimum.

Brown doesn't mention seeing the couple on his way to the shop, so the couple arrive AFTER Brown has gone into the shop.

The couple get to the corner no later than 12.50am, meaning that Brown has to be in the shop by 12.49am at the latest.

12.49am minus 3 minutes, takes us back to 12.46am.

Brown gets into the Chandler's shop at 12.46am at the very latest.
Plus the 1 minute walk from his house, then takes us to him leaving his house at 12.45am.

Which is precisely the time he stated.

So that means that we have Brown leaving his house and waking towards Berner Street at 12.45am.

That means the assault must have taken place between 12.43am to 12.44am

This is based on an assault lasting just 60 seconds and Brown just missing Schwartz run away.

So the assault could have taken place no later than 12.43am or 12.44am at the very VERY latest.

So where did the couple who Brown sees on the corner at 12.50am come from?

Well, we know that Mortimer is at her door no later than 12.47am and doesn't mention seeing the couple, so it seems almost certain that the couple seen by Brown at 12.50am arrived at the corner from the east and walked west towards the junction, and therfore were always out of sight of the northern section of Berner Street.

The coupe may have been a minute or so behind Br9wn as he made his way to the Chandler Shop.

So let's look at the other end 9f the timescale.

Eagle claimed he arrived around 12.40am and though he alludes to people being around, Stride isn't in the yard then.
Meaning she is still alive at 12.40am

However, let's assume that Eagle is also wrong on timings. It's unlikely he can be pushed later than 12.42am, because of the assault needing to take place by 12.43am or 12.44am at the latest.

So realistically Eagle could have got back to the yard anytime between 12.35am to 12.42am.

But because of Bs man being ahead of Schwartz, and Pipeman loitering in a doorway, it would seem that 12.42am is also too late.

But let's keep it between 12.35am - 12.42am regardless.

But we have Pc Smith who claims to see Stride with Parcelman sometime between 12.30am to 12.35am

We could also say that he was out on his timings, but being a police officer, it would seem more likely that he would be accurate on his timings.

So let's say that 12.35am is the latest that PC Smith saw Stride.

That means that Eagle has to have got back to the Yard no earlier than 12.36am.

But we also then have Joseph Lave.

He is recorded as stating various things, but the general consensus is that he went "as far as the street" and stayed there for around 10 minutes.

But let's again suggest that he also exaggerated, it would take him timings down to as little as 7 minutes.

Lave needs at least 7 minutes.

But crucially, it was also reported that Eagle was the last person back into the club via the yard, meaning that Lave had to be gone BEFORE Eagle walks into the yard.

So if Eagle is as late as 12.42am, then Lave needs to be gone by 12.41am at the very latest.

That places Lave in the street at 12.34am at the very latest.

But PC Smith doesn't mention Lave, and so unless Lave is also Parcelman, then Lave needs to come out into the street after or before PC Smith sees Stride.

That means that Pc Smith sees Stride between 12 30am- 12.33am and then Lave arrives at 12.34am, goes in at 12.41, then Eagle arrives and goes into the yard at 12.42am, at which point Stride THEN goes over to the gateway at 12.43am just moments before she's assaulted.

Or...

Lave has gone back into the club by 12.32am, after having been out there since 12.25am, PC Smith then sees Stride between 12.33am to 12.37am, who then stands talking with Parcelman at the same time Eagle returns to the club and enters the yard sometime between 12.37am to 12.42am.

Regardless, Stride has to go over to the yard AFTER Eagle has gone through the yard.

Which means that Stride has to go over to the yard sometime AFTER the earliest possible time that Eagle can go into the yard AFTER Lave.

PC Smith doesn't observe Eagle try the front door, so based on their relative timings, Eagle almost certainly got back to the yard AFTER PC Smith had passed by.

12.30am being the earliest that PC Smith observes Stride, to 12.42am being the latest that Eagle can go through the yard for the assault to then take place at 12.43am or 12.44am at the very latest.

There is also the courting couple who took a walk along Commercial Road and then BACK DOWN Berner Street, plus Charles Letchford and his sister Miss Letchford at no.30 Berner St to factor in, all of whom seem to have been present BEFORE PC Smith saw Stride.


So we have Eagle's earliest time going into the yard as 12.37am
and his latest as 12.42am

This is because of both Lave and Pc Smith parameters being added into the equation.

That means that the very earliest that Stride could have easily gone over to the yard was 12.37am, directly after the earliest time that Eagle could have walked through the yard.

So where does Parcel man go?

And why does the description given by Schwartz not match Parcel man?

We need to allocate time for Parcleman to go.

He isn't with Stride when she is assaulted by BS man.

Furthermore, if the earliest time that Stride can be standing over in the yard is 12.37am, then the assault must have taken place sometime between 12.38am to 12.43am.

12.44am doesn't give time for Bs Man to arrive and Schwartz to walk down the road to witness the assault

So we have Schwartz witnessing the assault sometime between 12.38am and 12.43am

But this is based on Eagle's time being put by a couple of minutes and Lave's time being reduced, and Mortimer exaggerating.

If we take the 12.40am at face value, it supports both Eagle's claim and then gives Lave those extra few minutes to also support his claim.

And so while 12.38am is possible, it's unlikely.

That means the most probable time for the assault to have taken place was 12.41am to 12.43am

That's the most likely time for the assault to have taken place.

It means Eagle has just gone and Brown just misses seeing Schwartz run off.

This is then only 2 to 4 minutes difference with Schwartz's timings, but far more likely based on all other viable parameters.

So this 2 to 3 minute window only exists because all other witnesses need their perceived timings questioned.

It doesn't work at face value, ergo 12.45am, but is possible based on my theory above at 12.41am to 12.43am

Of course, the question as to where Parcelman went is crucial. He wasn't BS man because his description is way off.

So was Parcelman Lave?

And of course, if the assault could have only taken place between 12 41am to 12.43am...then WHEN was Stride actually MURDERED?

The killer can't have left the yard AFTER 12.46am, because Mortimer was at her door by 12.47am at the latest.

This proves that the murder had to have occurred sometime between 12.41am to 12.45am

This is based on Eagle or Lave not being the killer.

Assault 12.41am to 12.43am
Murder 12.41am to 12.45am

Of course, Stride may have been standing in the gateway from after Eagle went into the yard and stayed there with her killer right up until just before Mortimer goes inside at 12.59am at the latest.

in that case, the murder could have happened any time from 12.41am to 12.59am

But IF it happened AFTER 12.46am, then Stride must have been standing in the shadows of the yard with her killer for as much as 18 minutes before he chose to cut her throat.

Which interestingly is within the same time frame that Goldstein passes by the kill site.


Make of that what you will.