Suspect Witnesses?

[Lewis C]

An interesting idea, Lewis and it would make sense if she wanted to distance herself from a possible return of the B.S. man. But I can't see it working out timewise. Even if she remained near the club, the entrance of her killer onto the scene is pretty tight timewise. So I can't see how your suggestion could work giving the extra time it would have taken.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

When I say somewhere else, I don't mean that it would have needed to be far away. I'm saying that if BS Man didn't kill her, that doesn't mean that she went back to standing in the gateway. If she was even 10 feet away from standing in the gateway, then she wouldn't have been standing in the gateway. If Brown really saw Stride, and if that was after the Schwartz incident, the couple that Brown saw wasn't standing in the gateway.

[Sunny Delight]

Schwartz and his wife.


THAT'S why Schwartz went to the police.

He was essentially BS man and he knew he had been witnesed to throw his wife down onto the ground.

So he goes to the police and essentially invents BS man the drunken gentile, to try and cover that it was HE that threw his wife down on the floor.

And if that's the case, then maybe Stride and her killer were also witnesses to that assault.

Could there be a scenario whereby Stride goes over to the yard to check on the wife?

Thet is thevl catalyst for Stride going into the yard; to help Schwartz's wife who has just been assaulted by her husband.

Of course, perhaps Stride got involved and was then murdered?

Schwartz (who is BS man) runs off and the wife goes back into the club.

Or the wife could be "Yaffa"

I reckon Schwarz and his wife were both club members

Lots to hypothesise here, haha!

Or maybe, just maybe Israel Schwartz was on his way home and witnessed an assault near a social club on Berner Street. He then learned about a murder at said social club the next day so reported what he had seen to the Police, with the help of a friend who interpreted for him.

It's not that complicated.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It’s good to see we agree that, at least when Eagle and Smith passed, Mortimer wasn’t at her doorstep. I, however, don’t agree that it would have been a matter of just a minute or two, but at the very least 3 and probably somewhat more.

According to Smith’s inquest testimony he entered Berner Street from Commercial Road as per his usual route after having been there before when he saw Stride & Parcelman. So, it’s fair to say that when he saw the couple he had also entered Berner Street from Commercial Road. But he also testified that when he saw the couple, he was on his way to Commercial Road. So, he must have entered Berner Street from the north, walked until he reached Fairclough Street, turned around back to the north and then saw the couple. From Commercial Road to Fairclough Street and back are 830 feet/250 metres.

Walking that distance at a speed of 3 mph, it would have taken Smith 3 minutes and 6 seconds to cover that distance. If he walked at a speed of 2.5 mph, it would have taken him 3 minutes and 45 seconds. Seeing that, at least, Smith apparently didn’t see Eagle, we’d have to add some time for him to have stayed out of Smith’s sight. This, of course, is only if we’d assume that Smith and Eagle were very close behind each other in Berner Street.

Not sure if I agree with this. You seem to be implying that Smith would go up and down Berner St twice each beat.

Why should we be obliged to ask that? Mortimer said she was at her door nearly the whole half hour, so she should have seen them, but this doesn't go for Lave. It's exactly because Lave doesn't mention the couple that we should think that they weren't there when he was in the street. Seeing a man and a woman close to the yard, especially one that could very well have been Stride, would have been important information for the police and the press alike.

This is one of the quotes you offered to suggest that Lave did indeed go out onto the street ...

Actually, Lave did say that he go beyond the gateway.

Irish Times & Morning Advertiser of 1 October:
“went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air, and for five minutes or more he strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time…”

This would place Lave on the street at least as late as 12:45. If he is not on the street when the couple are there, and you think Mortimer ought to have seen him for her claim to be taken seriously, then when was Lave on the street? To answer my own question - right when Stride ought to have been seen standing in the gateway.

Another thing to keep in mind here, is that Smith only saw the couple on his way back to Commercial Road, not on his way to Fairclough Street, so they must have appeared in the street after he’d passed the spot where he later saw them standing on his way down the street. Since Smith didn’t mention seeing anybody in the street but the couple, there’s reason for us to think Lave wasn’t there when Smith passed Mortimer’s house and the club and, therefore, didn’t see Stride & Parcelman as they hadn’t arrived yet.

Someone who knows more about police beats than I do, might want to comment on this?

It makes no sense if you start at the wrong end, Andrew, which you do. It’s very clear from her own interview that she got indoors just before one o’clock and then, after hearing the commotion, went out just after one o’clock. This fits with the other evidence of when Diemshutz arrived and when the commotion started. This is the right end of the 10-minute vigil to start with. So, it ended a few minutes before one am and, therefore, it must have begun 10 minutes – give or take a minute – before that, which would be around 12:47.

So, you agree with the interview, except for the possibility of her being at her door at 12:30, 12:35, 12:40, and 12:45. Why would she state this, and then say something entirely different to another reporter?

I don’t have any problem with the ‘immediately after hearing a policeman pass by’ being a minute or two afterwards instead of just seconds afterwards.

A minute or two prior to 12:47 takes us back to 12:45. Do you mean you don't have any problem with Smith passing at that time?

If one sees it the way you do, then yes, it would be strange. But, as I explained above, I don’t see it that way. The 10 minutes are roughly between 12:47 and 12:57 with a gap between 12:42-43 and 12:47.

So, where is Lave during the gap, and who does Mortimer hear passing by?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Her moving out is not suspicious. You're implying that I've said something that I have not.

Well that is certainly what I took away from it. If that is not correct then my apologies. I certainly was not trying to put words in your mouth. But I can't understand why you keep alluding to it.

c.d.

No need to apologise but thanks anyway. I'm trying to make sense of as much evidence as I can, taken together. May 'solutions' offered in this thread and others, implicitly raise new questions or contradict other evidence, not acknowledged by the poster.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm a little confused - did Schwartz not understand what he saw, because interpreting what he saw required a good command of English, or did he just witness "a little street hassle", that could be understood by any witness of any background?

Schwartz might have been able to interpret what he thought he was seeing but it would have been very difficult to be certain. He would have no way of knowing what or who instigated the altercation or what it was all about. Nor could he ascertain the B.S. man's intention.

You seem to be suggesting that had Schwartz been an English speaker, all this would have been obvious to him. Even if that is assumed true, so what? Your other claim is that this was a little street hassle. What practical difference does an understanding of English make to 'interpreting' that?

Take a look at the A Modern Day BS Man/Liz encounter thread I started. Had I not understood English my interpretation of what I thought I was seeing would have been completely wrong.

c.d.

I will take another look at that thread soon.

Perhaps someone could explain why our non-English speaker was able to interpret the following ...

... but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

''''
Im a little confused also. Who else witnessed the attack on Stride at 12.45am ? ........ '' Those who saw it '' who are these '' Supposed ''Those''

Good question. I suspect this will be dealt with as follows ...

Prior to that tho , the man was witnessed trying to drag Stride into the street , which implies that he was trying to take her somewhere does it not ?

22 Ellen St.

[The Rookie Detective]

Or maybe, just maybe Israel Schwartz was on his way home and witnessed an assault near a social club on Berner Street. He then learned about a murder at said social club the next day so reported what he had seen to the Police, with the help of a friend who interpreted for him.

It's not that complicated.

Ah but it is when he claimed he witnessed an assault that happened around 12.45am, which clashes with both Brown and Mortimer, and possibly the couple on the corner.

And when nobody saw or heard anything he claimed happened...including Bs man, Pipeman, and anti-semitic slur and a partiial chase down the road.

And when it is reported in the newspaper that there was some questioning as to the truth of his story.

And when he was said to have run as far as the train line...that doesn't fit with the geography of the area

And when his statement has Pipeman on the wrong side of the road.

And when he can't be traced to 22 Ellen Street

And when he's described specifically as "theatrical"

And when he just seems to disappear

And when he can't be traced 137 years later.

And when he didn't appear at the inquest


But hey ho; if y'all think that there's nothing suspicious...


Sometimes we have to be brave and brake the wheel in order to see what other options and possibilities there are.
If we accept there's nothing suspicious, untoward and everything is as we've all been told over the past century and more, then we will never have the open mindedness to really see what's going on.


It takes a leap of faith

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ok…Smith first passed at around 12.35 and then again at around 1.05. As George (I believe) said previously, the best way to approach this is by ‘order of events’ first without times. Because of the absolute fact of poor clock synchronisation and of fallible humans estimating periods of time then we cannot go around dismissing events by “tireless nitpicking.” Nothing that occurred in Berner Street can’t be given an entirely reasonable explanation. Usually more than one.

Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived.

If Smith arrived at the yard at 1:05, and was not called, then he would be seeing the crowd outside the gates from his location at the top of Berner St, at about 1:03. Now consider the relevant section of your latest timeline suggestion.

Timeline suggestion

1.00 - Louis Diemschitz returns to Dutfield’s Yard and sees the body by lighting a match. He immediately goes into the club to find his wife.

1.01:30 - Diemschitz decides to go to look for a Constable. Kozebrodski goes with him and they head to Fairclough Street. James Brown hears them shouting as they run.

1.02 - The club members realise that there are members upstairs who haven’t been told so Gilleman goes upstairs and informs Eagle and the others.

1.02:30 - Eagle and the other members are now all in the yard jostling for a look at the corpse. Eagle is told that Diemschitz and Kozebrodski have gone for a Constable and which way they have gone.

1.03:15 - Eagle runs for a Constable north on Berner Street.

1.03:30 - Kozebrodski returns followed by Diemschitz who now has Spooner with him. Kozebrodski is told that Eagle has gone so he decides to run and catch him up; which he does in Commercial Road.

1.04 - They see PC. Lamb and inform him about the body.

1.05- They return to Dutfield’s Yard with PC. Ayliffe who has joined them.

You still don't have a coherent picture of what occurred.

[FISHY1118]

Good question. I suspect this will be dealt with as follows ...





22 Ellen St.

Why there i might ask ?

[FISHY1118]

Ah but it is when he claimed he witnessed an assault that happened around 12.45am, which clashes with both Brown and Mortimer, and possibly the couple on the corner.

And when nobody saw or heard anything he claimed happened...including Bs man, Pipeman, and anti-semitic slur and a partiial chase down the road.

And when it is reported in the newspaper that there was some questioning as to the truth of his story.

And when he was said to have run as far as the train line...that doesn't fit with the geography of the area

And when his statement has Pipeman on the wrong side of the road.

And when he can't be traced to 22 Ellen Street

And when he's described specifically as "theatrical"

And when he just seems to disappear

And when he can't be traced 137 years later.

And when he didn't appear at the inquest


But hey ho; if y'all think that there's nothing suspicious...


Sometimes we have to be brave and brake the wheel in order to see what other options and possibilities there are.
If we accept there's nothing suspicious, untoward and everything is as we've all been told over the past century and more, then we will never have the open mindedness to really see what's going on.


It takes a leap of faith

You dont think the Police would have asked Brown and Mortimer if they saw any person being attacked at 12.45 as Schwartz claimed ?. Did they ever make a statement saying words to the effect''We were there but there was no attack ?. As far as im aware anybody who claims they were there at the same time as Schwartz never once claimed they saw the same thing as he did, or that there was never any attack.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The only logicals reason I can see that Stride would be pulled away from the gateway into the street would be

• That BS man is drunken Kidney. He knows she is friendly with and works for some Jewish people and he is agitated by this and her so goes to the club or comes across her in his wanderings

OR

• The man is a bit drunk and fancies his chances with Liz, pulling her away from the Jewish club which he does not frequent, to encourage her to go with him. She sends him on his way before she wanders into the club either to see Parcelman or to enjoy the music and singing, who wouldn't. She was after a nice time out, hence her making the effort with the way she dressed that evening.

In other words BS man seems to be a pain in the backside half drunk. Surely JTR wouldn't expose himself to potential witnesses with his behaviour.

NW

So, either Kidney deceived the police, or a man tried to pick up Liz for a romantic stroll through the streets, but resorted to violence when rejected, and after sending him on his way she goes back into the darkness to hang out with a man holding a parcel or to be entertained by music and singing. Yes, who wouldn't do that? I'm surprised there wasn't a crowd there with them.

[FISHY1118]

The whole scenario is open to interpretation as to how the witnesses perceived what they saw.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

''the man was witnessed trying to drag Stride into the street''


Theres only one way to interpret that Trevor , that is ''the man was witnessed trying to drag Stride into the street''

Whether you decide to believe Schwartz version of this event or not is irrelevant ,it is simply what it is .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Prior to that tho , the man was witnessed trying to drag Stride into the street , which implies that he was trying to take her somewhere does it not ?

It also could have been someone associated with the Club who believed she might be soliciting and took offense that it was on club property.

c.d.

It may have been already suggested over the years, but what if this somebody was Morris Eagle, returning from taking home his girlfriend? Discovering the dead woman in the yard was the woman he'd tried to send away only some 20 minutes earlier, he might have thought it wise to not tell anybody about this even though he knew had been seen by Schwartz. Just a thought.

Don't tell me you're resorting to a 'someone lied' theory? Expect to hear from Wickerman very soon.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Schwartz and his wife.


THAT'S why Schwartz went to the police.

He was essentially BS man and he knew he had been witnesed to throw his wife down onto the ground.

So he goes to the police and essentially invents BS man the drunken gentile, to try and cover that it was HE that threw his wife down on the floor.

Yes, his wife, but that alone would not be enough to prompt him to go to the police. However, once Wess starts telling a story of a man pursued, and that man was believed by onlookers to be the murderer, then the equation changes.

Wess, obviously enough, knew this story was false in regard to who was the murderer, but it was convenient for him to implicitly frame Schwartz. Wess wanted to protect the club, not solve the murder.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, but if that assault happened to occur in the same location that a woman was later murdered, then yes.

So what im suggesting is that there WAS an assault, but that assault was Schwartz on his wife, who were both club members.

Schwartz was BS man.

That would play on his mind, but he still has the option of staying anonymous. However, if Wess is telling Schwartz he knows the name of the man who pursued him, and he is openly suggesting that the man pursued is believed by multiple witnesses to have been the murderer, Schwartz is going to be under extreme pressure to keep his name clear.

Note also that Wess was very keen to keep Goldstein's name clear, to the point of marching him to Leman St station late one night, to make a statement. Apparently, he wanted the focus to remain on Schwartz.