Suspect Witnesses?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What if Schwartz's account took place whilst Brown was in the shop, RD? At least 3-4 minutes would have been enough for it to begin & end. Just (another) thought.

Then we would need to explain why Brown's timing places them there at about 12:50, whereas the young woman referred to having been at their location for about 20 minutes prior to the alarm of murder.

We would also need to explain why Stride is now at the board school corner, or instead why Brown thought Stride looked like a young woman.

[FISHY1118]

What if Schwartz's account took place whilst Brown was in the shop, RD? At least 3-4 minutes would have been enough for it to begin & end. Just (another) thought.

It could just as easy have been over in 60 secs.

[c.d.]

Perhaps someone could explain why our non-English speaker was able to interpret the following ...

... but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder.

Perhaps we can turn to the immortal words of Bob Dylan -- "You don't need a weatherman to know which way wind blows."

I would say there are certain experiences which everyone pretty much agrees on. For example, "it sounded like an argument", "he seemed to be really drunk", "he seemed very angry", "he seemed to be spoiling for a fight", "it looked like he was flirting with her", "it looks like it is going to rain" etc.

Even children can give evidence in court.

As for the above example you picked out, notice he said "some sort" of warning. He couldn't say what it actually was. And "as if" to attack the intruder not he attacked the intruder. Everything else in the sentence would be obvious to anyone not visually impaired which apparently Schwartz was not.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Your other claim is that this was a little street hassle. What practical difference does an understanding of English make to 'interpreting' that?

I never claimed that this was a little street hassle. Obviously I have no way of knowing with absolute certainty. My opinion is that this was just a little street hassle.

And I am not aware of Schwartz ever definitively describing what he saw as in I witnessed a murder/domestic argument/street hassle. Which is why Swanson allowed for the possibility of a second man being Stride's murderer and not the B.S. man.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

When she goes somewhere else, the 10-minute doorstep vigil must start. There is not enough remaining time for these things to occur consecutively.

The other issue is that by supposing she goes somewhere else, after standing in the gateway, Stride's gateway vigil is left unexplained. Not only that but the BS man's motivation for acting violently to her, is also left unexplained.

See my response to c.d. for the 1st paragraph, For the 2nd, those 2 things are unexplained in any case.

[Lewis C]

Everything can be explained. You just don’t like the answers because they don’t point to some kind of plot.

Hi Herlock,

I guess I understood what he meant by unexplained differently than you did. When I said that they are unexplained, I meant that we don't know what the explanation is. But when you say everything can be explained, if you just mean that a plausible explanation can be had, I agree with that.

[Lewis C]

Don't tell me you're resorting to a 'someone lied' theory? Expect to hear from Wickerman very soon.

A witness lying isn't the same thing as a potential witness keeping his mouth shut.

[Wickerman]

Or maybe, just maybe Israel Schwartz was on his way home and witnessed an assault near a social club on Berner Street. He then learned about a murder at said social club the next day so reported what he had seen to the Police, with the help of a friend who interpreted for him.

It's not that complicated.

Maybe, he did witness an assault as described, but as he did not read or speak English, he had no idea which street he was passing through.
Later that day, he heard tales of a murder in Berner St. - he assumed that was what he saw.
Yet, not one witness ever mentioned him passing through Berner St.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Maybe, he did witness an assault as described, but as he did not read or speak English, he had no idea which street he was passing through.
Later that day, he heard tales of a murder in Berner St. - he assumed that was what he saw.
Yet, not one witness ever mentioned him passing through Berner St.

I don't understand the concept that "he had no idea which street he was passing through" as he was said to have been living in Berner Street.

[New Waterloo]

I had considered that, but when Brown left the Chandler's shop less than 5 minutes later (he said 4 minutes) there was a couple he walked past and saw standing bear the board school in Fairclough St, who don't appear to have been there when Brown was on his way to the Chandler's shop 4 minutes earlier.

That means that the couple he saw arrived in Fairclough Street when Brown was in the shop.

And yet this couple (if they're the same couple that spoke to Mortimer) after the murder, didn't see or hear the assault that Schwartz claimed happened.

On that basis, I find it unlikely that the assault occurred after Brown.

In fact there's only a maximum of a 5 minute window between Eagle walking into the yard at 12.40am and Brown walking west across the bottom of the junction with Fairclough and Berner St to then walk into the Chandler's shop at 12.45am.

The Schwartz incident couldn't have occurred at 12.45am, or once Brown, the couple on the corner, and Mortimer are all within audio or visual proximity of where and when the assault took place.

The only time that the Schwartz incident could have happened realistically, is 12.41am-12.44am, meaning that both Brown and Eagle had just missed the assault.

But of course, if the assault never happened, then nothing happened between 12.40am when Eagle walked into the yard, to the point when Mortimer was at her door and saw Goldstein walk south past the club and around the corner of the board school, which was at a time when Mortimer was at her door.

We know that Mortimer didn't see Eagle or Lave, so she wasn't at her door until after 12.40am.

With the Schwartz story omitted, the street was quiet until the body was found around 1am.

That validates Mortimer's "most of the time" standing at her door. I.e from 12.42am to 12.59am.

That's 17 minutes out of 30

"Most of the time"

We also can be sure that the couple on the corner who Brown saw were STILL there after Stride was found, because Mortimer states herself that the couple told her they were there both BEFORE AND AFTER the murder.

So once the couple seen by Brown arrive at that corner just before Brown leaves the shop at 12.50am, they STAY there and are present after the body is found just 10 minutes later

It means that Brown misidentifed Stride as standing in Fariclough Street.

Otherwise we have 2 couples standing in the same place

So when Mortimer gets to her door a few minutes after Eagle walks into the yard, Morimer also stays there and her vigil proves that the killer didn't walk IN OR OUT of the yard after 12.42am.

Mortimer never sees the couple before the murder because they came from Fariclough Street; ergo from the same direction that Brown had walked from his house.

This is feasible but we are starting to multiply couples again. Brown leaves his house as close as can be to where Spooner and his girlfriend are standing. Browns house adjoins the Beehive Pub. So we have two couple in that part of Fairclough Street at the same time. My suggestion has always been that Spooner and his girlfriend had drifted the short distance towards Berner/Fairclough junction and it was them who were seen by Brown although Spooner doesn't say this. I cannot believe we have two couples in that small area at the same time. If the woman seen by Brown is not Stride or Spooners girlfriend then including Stride and her companion Parcelman we have at least 3 couples in quite a small area. Unless my brain is getting confused which is not unusual.

And Mortimer doesn't notice Brown because he walks along the bottom of the street and doesn't go anywhere near the yard.

So to summarise, the only time that the Schwartz assault could have taken place was 12.41am - 12.44am

But I personally think Schwartz lied and that there was no assault.

BUT crucially, and here's the crux of it...


The murder occurred at THE SAME TIME that Schwartz lied about what he saw.

But why?

Well, the killer didn't leave the yard once Mortimer was at her door.

Schwartz tells us that a drunken gentile assaulted Stride.


But he can't say he witnessed the murder.


So what's he playing at?

Well, firstly he's deflecting from the idea that a Jew could have been the killer, because his story clearly depicts a drunk gentile shouting an anti-semitic slur.

Secondly, by stating that he sees an assault and not a murder, he is delaying the kill time and implying that the woman was still alive at 12.45am when she was assaulted.

And thirdly, he is using BS Man as a bridge between Eagle and Lave having gone into the yard, and the assault occurring around 5 minutes AFTER Eagle had already gone inside the club.

It also seems to me that Parcelman is unlikely to have been the killer, because he must have been aware that he had been spotted by Pc Smith.

So Schwartz becomes a crucial part in deflecting from a Jewish club member having been the killer.

Stride was killed between 12.40am - 12.45am, meaning that Mortimer, Brown, and the couple on the corner aren't relevant in terms of the killer being around.

He was already gone before then

But there's another tantalising idea that I had...

What if Parcel man never existed.

And what if Pc Smith was actually in Berner Street 5 minutes later than he said he was.

It was claimed in the press thet Mortimer heard the measured heavy trap of footsteps pass her door, just before she came to her door.

Could that make Pc Smith the killer?

Stride the informant and a dodgy copper?

Pc Smith was late when he got back to the top of Berner Street afte the body had been found; as though he was virtually the last one to arrive and find out.

Could Mortimer have heard the killer cop just moments after he walked away from cutting Strides throat?

PC Smith is technically the last person to see Stride alive.

I wonder.


Lots to ponder

Apologies but not sure if I have inserted my comment correctly, may have messed it up

NW

[Sunny Delight]

Maybe, he did witness an assault as described, but as he did not read or speak English, he had no idea which street he was passing through.
Later that day, he heard tales of a murder in Berner St. - he assumed that was what he saw.
Yet, not one witness ever mentioned him passing through Berner St.

So was he just wandering aimlessly around Whitechapel with no clue what street he was on or where he was going? I think that is far fetched to say the least but even if it were the case- he would have known where the club was or we would assume he did as it was well known. So if he heard of the murder beside the club then he goes to Police as he remembers seeing an incident take place there at about 12:45am.

[Sunny Delight]

I don't understand the concept that "he had no idea which street he was passing through" as he was said to have been living in Berner Street.

Was he? I cant recall that being confirmed but it was in a paper? Makes me comment above obsolete.