A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[Sunny Delight]

Well, Anderson was of the belief that Schwartz himself was more likely the intended target. Schwartz originally thought it was shouted at Pipeman. Who was more likely boils down to an assessment of whether or not Schwartz's initial impression was incorrect, compared with Anderson's alternative suggestion based upon his interview with Schwartz and his knowledge of the times (and how Lipski was used as an insult towards Jews).

I believe it is more common for people today to side with Anderson, and to view Schwartz as probably mistaken in his interpretation of whom Lipski was shouted at. This is based in part upon the surviving police reports where it is stated that when questioned Schwartz was, in the end, unsure whom it was shouted at. This implies that when Anderson, during questioning, provided the alternative to Schwartz and it was then that Schwartz realised he himself may have been the intended target of the shout. (oh dear, was it Anderson or Abberline? I keep getting them mixed up here).

Anyway, given Schwartz appears to have accepted the possibility that he may have been the intended target, the probabilities lean towards that being the case in my view. And if that's the case, then Pipeman no longer appears to have been connected to B.S., and probably didn't chase Schwartz though he may have left the area in the same direction (leading to Schwartz's belief he was being chased).

Again, this many years after the events we can never know if that was the case, but from the snippets we have, that appears to be the most likely situation. But of course, it is not the only one.

- Jeff

Scotland Yard gave great credence to the name Lipski being shouted and felt if it was directed at Pipeman then this was a game changing lead. They were sorely disappointed when Abberline who had the local knowledge informed them that Lipski was in fact a racial slur used by locals to insult Jews or those with the appearance of being Jewish(by this I always think they mean Eastern European). But yeah it is fairly obvious that Abberline was fairly sure Lipski was directed at Schwartz. The two major clues I think we have is that the Ripper used a racist Jewish slur meaning he was not foreign and the apron dropped in Goulston Street showing him fleeing back into Whitechapel.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was Goldstein ever considered to be a witness? In 1891 he was in the census staying in a sea front house in the Isle of Sheppey ?

Not to my knowledge.

A simple question that everyone should have thought about, is; was Goldstein on the scene before or after the murder?

If before, there is precious little time for the murderer and victim to arrive.

If after, then Diemschitz did not interrupt the Ripper had it been him, and either way he did not see anyone leave the scene.

If after, then the broad-shouldered man is the odds-on favourite to be the murderer.

The murderer seems to have been skilled at killing with a knife, just like Jack.

Does it all make sense?

[GBinOz]

A simple question that everyone should have thought about, is; was Goldstein on the scene before or after the murder?

If before, there is precious little time for the murderer and victim to arrive.

Hi Andrew,

Suppose the Schwartz incident is over and Stride walks into the yard alone and is murdered by Goldstein. He then walks north up Berner St and is heard by Mortimer (the footsteps) at about 12:45, goes to the Spectacle Cafe and retrieves his cigarette boxes and is seen by Mortimer headed south at about 1:00. Fifteen minutes is plenty of time for the return trip and an "establishment of presence" at the Spectacle. All pure speculation, of course.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

Suppose the Schwartz incident is over and Stride walks into the yard alone and is murdered by Goldstein. He then walks north up Berner St and is heard by Mortimer (the footsteps) at about 12:45, goes to the Spectacle Cafe and retrieves his cigarette boxes and is seen by Mortimer headed south at about 1:00. Fifteen minutes is plenty of time for the return trip and an "establishment of presence" at the Spectacle. All pure speculation, of course.

Cheers, George

George,
I'm not sure about the Spectacle Alley cafe bit...

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/general-help-request-items-for-sale-forum/600731-the-berner-street-club?p=601364#post601364

[Herlock Sholmes]

George,
I'm not sure about the Spectacle Alley cafe bit...
https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/gene...364#post601364

Coincidentally, in that thread that you just pointed out to me on JTRForums, and from the same poster (Jose):

“Ah, one more thing, regarding the Leon Goldstein incident (apart from a certain Mark Goldstein that I found living in 2 Spectacle Alley in 1885, which I have no way of connecting to Leon), I am unable to find any coffee shop in Spectacle Alley, neither in 1888 nor before.”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Coincidentally, in that thread that you just pointed out to me on JTRForums, and from the same poster (Jose):

Yes - the link in my #139 post goes to #46 on that page on JtRF.

[GBinOz]

Coincidentally, in that thread that you just pointed out to me on JTRForums, and from the same poster (Jose):

“Ah, one more thing, regarding the Leon Goldstein incident (apart from a certain Mark Goldstein that I found living in 2 Spectacle Alley in 1885, which I have no way of connecting to Leon), I am unable to find any coffee shop in Spectacle Alley, neither in 1888 nor before.”

So what alternatives are available?

1. Despite the best efforts of poster Jose, the Spectacle Cafe did exist.
2. Goldstein was lying.

Since the marginal note on Leon's report indicated that the police were not without their suspicions about his story, I would imagine that they would have investigated by at least checking his alibi at the Spectacle Cafe. Had they found that the Cafe did not exist I dare say he would have been subjected to a higher level of scrutiny.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

So what alternatives are available?

1. Despite the best efforts of poster Jose, the Spectacle Cafe did exist.
2. Goldstein was lying.

Since the marginal note on Leon's report indicated that the police were not without their suspicions about his story, I would imagine that they would have investigated by at least checking his alibi at the Spectacle Cafe. Had they found that the Cafe did not exist I dare say he would have been subjected to a higher level of scrutiny.

Cheers, George

I don’t read anything into it to be honest George. I only pointed it out because it was a mention of Goldstein. There must be an explanation for why he couldn’t find the cafe. Maybe it wasn’t exactly ‘official?’

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don’t read anything into it to be honest George. I only pointed it out because it was a mention of Goldstein.

You "pointed it out", after I linked to it.

There must be an explanation for why he couldn’t find the cafe. Maybe it wasn’t exactly ‘official?’

What's an unofficial coffee shop? One run by dodgy characters in a dodgy alley?

[Herlock Sholmes]

You "pointed it out", after I linked to it.

What’s the point of this comment? It was such a trivial point. Who recalls the circumstances of every single post?

What's an unofficial coffee shop? One run by dodgy characters in a dodgy alley?

I haven’t a clue. I was just reacting to the fact that Jose hadn’t been able to find the café. Naturally you’ll think that it means that it was just a front for an international terrorist cell run by Mrs Fiddymont but I’ll assume that there was a reasonable that we just aren’t aware of.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Kattrup has just posted this over on JTRForums. If this has already been mentioned on this thread apologies for the repetition.

“Jose, 2 Spectacle Alley was in 1886 the address of Jewish Entertainment Working Men’s Club.

I assume that that was the “coffee-house” Goldstein referred to.”

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Kattrup has just posted this over on JTRForums. If this has already been mentioned on this thread apologies for the repetition.

“Jose, 2 Spectacle Alley was in 1886 the address of Jewish Entertainment Working Men’s Club.

I assume that that was the “coffee-house” Goldstein referred to.”

The Jewish Entertainment Working Men’s Club was the coffee shop Goldstein referred to? Well perhaps that's where he met Schwartz, who you'll recall fronted up to Leman street station with the appearance of being in the theatrical line.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Jewish Entertainment Working Men’s Club was the coffee shop Goldstein referred to? Well perhaps that's where he met Schwartz, who you'll recall fronted up to Leman street station with the appearance of being in the theatrical line.

What makes you think that Goldstein and Schwartz knew each other?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What makes you think that Goldstein and Schwartz knew each other?

When Schwartz said he ran to the railway arch, he had a specific arch in mind. It was the one near Goldstein's place. Schwartz was effectively saying he ran to 22 Christian street. What complicates the matter a little, is this ...

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

Why cross the road? Was he intending to go there anyway?

[GBinOz]

When Schwartz said he ran to the railway arch, he had a specific arch in mind. It was the one near Goldstein's place. Schwartz was effectively saying he ran to 22 Christian street. What complicates the matter a little, is this ...

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

Why cross the road? Was he intending to go there anyway?

Hi Andrew,

My understanding is that Schwartz was headed south down Berner St towards his new home in Ellen St, so, yes, he was intending to go there (Ellen St) anyway. Sequence was, walking down western side of Berner towards Ellen St, cross to eastern side of Berner to avoid domestic argument, reach intersection at Fairclough and just as stepping off northern kerb of Fairclough sees an movement of Pipeman towards him. Run like hell down Berner, past his home in Ellen (doesn't want pursuer to know where he lives) to the arches in Pinchin St.

Cheers, George