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A closer look at Leon Goldstein
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Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
You're right, it always has been thee most important question for those interested in his route of flight.
If we're honest it could be either, an Ellen St. address could be written as "Ellen-street, Backchurch-lane", as Backchurch lane is a larger street than Berner St.
I doubt he gave a false address, you don't offer yourself as a witness just to lie about where you live. The interpreter will also need to give his address, he is as much responsible for what is stated as the witness, and both will have to sign the statement.
The other important question, for those wary about press versions, is what did "opposite" mean in Swanson's summary?
Did Schwartz step out to cross the road, and saw Pipeman standing opposite - meaning by the Board School?
Or had Schwartz reached the Board School and then noticed Pipeman standing opposite, that is back on the club side if the street?
Swanson only says "on crossing", but did he mean as he began crossing, or as he finished crossing?Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.
It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.
Cheers, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
The problem with this idea is Wess knows that Schwartz was a witness to an assault.
So we have to ask ourselves why would he tell an Echo journalist that the man being pursued was thought to be the killer, when the man being pursued was Schwartz, and he knew it?
So, the man pursued and the man pursuing had to take on different roles. Version 2.0. Having said that, the Echo report contains an element of truth. Although associated with the club, the pursuing man was indeed a non-member. Here he is:
Joseph Lave sys - I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at that time, and I noticed nothing wrong.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
The 1895 Post Office Directory show a Chandler shop at 3 Spectacle Alley owned by Jacob Posner.
The same address in 1882 was a dealer in china, there is no surviving PO Direc. for 1888.
M.(Image of Charles Allen Lechmere is by artist Ashton Guilbeaux. Used by permission. Original art-work for sale.)
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Originally posted by Mark J D View Post
I wasn't aware of a Resources thread over at JtR, I mostly stuck to the press resources.
Thanks, again.Regards, Jon S.
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Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Ahh, I see:
12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.
It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.
Cheers, George
I would say just the opposite: the closer Schwartz was to the assault, the more motivated he would be to move himself away from it.
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Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Ahh, I see:
12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.
It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.
Cheers, George
If Schwartz was short of the gateway when the man pushes Stride into that dark yard, prompting Schwartz to cross the street, how was Schwartz able to identify Stride at the mortuary? According to the press report, he hears but does not see the quarrel. Alternatively, if Stride is pulled from the gateway, as per the police report, then it also has to be accepted that Schwartz had already reached the gates when this occurs.
If the next thing he does is cross the road, then he just (inadvertently) told us where he was heading - south-east of the club.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
Alternatively, if Stride is pulled from the gateway, as per the police report, then it also has to be accepted that Schwartz had already reached the gates when this occurs.
If the next thing he does is cross the road
The gateway was 3 yards wide. If BSM and Stride are in the centre, then Schwartz could be at the northern end of the gateway, about 2 yards from the couple with them directly in front of him. Are you proposing that this is when he spotted Pipeman? Are you proposing Pipeman was outside the Nelson, or on the opposite side of that intersection, near the Board School?
Schwartz said that he noticed Pipeman make a move towards him just as he was stepping off the kerb. There were only 2 kerbs off which he could have been stepping - the western kerb in Berner just in front of the gateway, or the northern kerb of Fairclough, near the Board School.
Schwartz said he became fearful of his safety and ran away. If you are suggesting he was near the gateway when he spotted Pipeman, wouldn't he have been running towards the perceived threat?
Cheers, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Hi Andrew,
The gateway was 3 yards wide. If BSM and Stride are in the centre, then Schwartz could be at the northern end of the gateway, about 2 yards from the couple with them directly in front of him. Are you proposing that this is when he spotted Pipeman? Are you proposing Pipeman was outside the Nelson, or on the opposite side of that intersection, near the Board School?
Schwartz said that he noticed Pipeman make a move towards him just as he was stepping off the kerb. There were only 2 kerbs off which he could have been stepping - the western kerb in Berner just in front of the gateway, or the northern kerb of Fairclough, near the Board School.
Schwartz said he became fearful of his safety and ran away. If you are suggesting he was near the gateway when he spotted Pipeman, wouldn't he have been running towards the perceived threat?
Cheers, GeorgeAndrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
As per the linked post in #173, I'm following the police report exclusively. Therefore, the location of Pipeman is ambiguous but most likely directly across from #40, and definitely not in the doorway of the Nelson.
In the police report, Pipeman follows Schwartz after Schwartz has crossed the road. He crossed the road because he intends to go down Fairclough St, anyway. Notice how Schwartz walks away before noticing Pipeman follow. This is a crucial point because it suggests he was not aware of Pipeman following until turning into Fairclough St. He then runs down Fairclough, and into Christian St (matching what we see in the Echo report). Down near the railway arch is where he lives - 22 Christian St.
22 Christain St was Goldstein's address. Are you suggesting Schwartz was actually Goldstein? And that Schwartz/Goldstein killed Stride and was chased by Pipeman "matching what we see in the Echo report" ?
Cheers, GeorgeLast edited by GBinOz; 09-10-2023, 01:16 AM.The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
Hi Andrew,
22 Christain St was Goldstein's address. Are you suggesting Schwartz was actually Goldstein? And that Schwartz/Goldstein killed Stride and was chased by Pipeman "matching what we see in the Echo report" ?
Cheers, George
Well, compare the route I'm suggesting for Schwartz, to a man starting at Spectacle Alley, and ...
Fanny Mortimer: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.
For all intents and purposes, the two routes are identical. Tell me why.Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostGoldstein took his bag to the police station, Schwartz went to the same station to give a statement.
Do you think anyone noticed the similarity?
Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing
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Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
On the evening of September 30, a man going by the name of Israel Schwartz, walked into Leman St station with an interpreter. By October 2, the story that man had given, although initially accepted, had started to falter. Midnight that night, a man going by the name of Leon Goldstein, walked into Leman St station, with an interpreter.
With respect, while I frequently admire your outside the box thinking, I think that Jon has shot that proposal down in flames.
Cheers, GeorgeThe needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm
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