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A closer look at Leon Goldstein

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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Does it? Where?
    This is a relocation as it’s been rightly pointed out that the John Richardson thread had become a Schwartz/Berner Street discussion. ​​​​​​…….. Posted by Michael Richards: Response from me: Perhaps you can explain how you select which Fanny Mortimer version to use?
    Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

      You're right, it always has been thee most important question for those interested in his route of flight.
      If we're honest it could be either, an Ellen St. address could be written as "Ellen-street, Backchurch-lane", as Backchurch lane is a larger street than Berner St.
      I doubt he gave a false address, you don't offer yourself as a witness just to lie about where you live. The interpreter will also need to give his address, he is as much responsible for what is stated as the witness, and both will have to sign the statement.
      Either way, there is no particular reason for Schwartz to cross the street when he does - having just watched some portion of the incident. There is no motive to cross, other than that being appropriate for his real destination. By crossing the street, he reveals that his real general destination is south-east of #40 Berner St. The reference to the railway arch makes things even clearer.

      The other important question, for those wary about press versions, is what did "opposite" mean in Swanson's summary?
      Did Schwartz step out to cross the road, and saw Pipeman standing opposite - meaning by the Board School?
      Or had Schwartz reached the Board School and then noticed Pipeman standing opposite, that is back on the club side if the street?
      Swanson only says "on crossing", but did he mean as he began crossing, or as he finished crossing?
      I think Swanson's summary takes a birds-eye-view, and not a Schwartz-eye-view. That is, "opposite" always means across from the club, and not a point-of-view that keep changing with movement.
      Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
        Ahh, I see:
        12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

        It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.

        Cheers, George
        Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

          The problem with this idea is Wess knows that Schwartz was a witness to an assault.
          So we have to ask ourselves why would he tell an Echo journalist that the man being pursued was thought to be the killer, when the man being pursued was Schwartz, and he knew it?
          The man pursued tactic didn't work, as obviously the police came asking about the name Wess was given, that he had managed to 'forget' by the time he was talking to the Echo reporter. The man pursued escaped, whereas Kozebrodski 'escaped' into Dutfield's Yard. Imagine the man with the forgotten name trying to explain that one!

          So, the man pursued and the man pursuing had to take on different roles. Version 2.0. Having said that, the Echo report contains an element of truth. Although associated with the club, the pursuing man was indeed a non-member. Here he is:

          Joseph Lave sys - I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at that time, and I noticed nothing wrong.
          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            The 1895 Post Office Directory show a Chandler shop at 3 Spectacle Alley owned by Jacob Posner.
            The same address in 1882 was a dealer in china, there is no surviving PO Direc. for 1888.
            Really...?



            M.

            Comment


            • Thankyou Mark, thats a huge surprise. I spent months looking for these directories many years ago.
              I wasn't aware of a Resources thread over at JtR, I mostly stuck to the press resources.
              Thanks, again.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                Ahh, I see:
                12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

                It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.

                Cheers, George
                Hi George,

                I would say just the opposite: the closer Schwartz was to the assault, the more motivated he would be to move himself away from it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                  Ahh, I see:
                  12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

                  It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.

                  Cheers, George
                  I said nothing about the middle of the street. I said this.

                  If Schwartz was short of the gateway when the man pushes Stride into that dark yard, prompting Schwartz to cross the street, how was Schwartz able to identify Stride at the mortuary? According to the press report, he hears but does not see the quarrel. Alternatively, if Stride is pulled from the gateway, as per the police report, then it also has to be accepted that Schwartz had already reached the gates when this occurs.

                  If the next thing he does is cross the road, then he just (inadvertently) told us where he was heading - south-east of the club.
                  Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                    Alternatively, if Stride is pulled from the gateway, as per the police report, then it also has to be accepted that Schwartz had already reached the gates when this occurs.

                    If the next thing he does is cross the road
                    Hi Andrew,

                    The gateway was 3 yards wide. If BSM and Stride are in the centre, then Schwartz could be at the northern end of the gateway, about 2 yards from the couple with them directly in front of him. Are you proposing that this is when he spotted Pipeman? Are you proposing Pipeman was outside the Nelson, or on the opposite side of that intersection, near the Board School?

                    Schwartz said that he noticed Pipeman make a move towards him just as he was stepping off the kerb. There were only 2 kerbs off which he could have been stepping - the western kerb in Berner just in front of the gateway, or the northern kerb of Fairclough, near the Board School.
                    Schwartz said he became fearful of his safety and ran away. If you are suggesting he was near the gateway when he spotted Pipeman, wouldn't he have been running towards the perceived threat?

                    Cheers, George
                    Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                    All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                    ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      Hi Andrew,

                      The gateway was 3 yards wide. If BSM and Stride are in the centre, then Schwartz could be at the northern end of the gateway, about 2 yards from the couple with them directly in front of him. Are you proposing that this is when he spotted Pipeman? Are you proposing Pipeman was outside the Nelson, or on the opposite side of that intersection, near the Board School?
                      As per the linked post in #173, I'm following the police report exclusively. Therefore, the location of Pipeman is ambiguous but most likely directly across from #40, and definitely not in the doorway of the Nelson.

                      Schwartz said that he noticed Pipeman make a move towards him just as he was stepping off the kerb. There were only 2 kerbs off which he could have been stepping - the western kerb in Berner just in front of the gateway, or the northern kerb of Fairclough, near the Board School.
                      Schwartz said he became fearful of his safety and ran away. If you are suggesting he was near the gateway when he spotted Pipeman, wouldn't he have been running towards the perceived threat?

                      Cheers, George
                      In the police report, Pipeman follows Schwartz after Schwartz has crossed the road. He crossed the road because he intends to go down Fairclough St, anyway. Notice how Schwartz walks away before noticing Pipeman follow. This is a crucial point because it suggests he was not aware of Pipeman following until turning into Fairclough St. He then runs down Fairclough, and into Christian St (matching what we see in the Echo report). Down near the railway arch is where he lives - 22 Christian St.
                      Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        As per the linked post in #173, I'm following the police report exclusively. Therefore, the location of Pipeman is ambiguous but most likely directly across from #40, and definitely not in the doorway of the Nelson.



                        In the police report, Pipeman follows Schwartz after Schwartz has crossed the road. He crossed the road because he intends to go down Fairclough St, anyway. Notice how Schwartz walks away before noticing Pipeman follow. This is a crucial point because it suggests he was not aware of Pipeman following until turning into Fairclough St. He then runs down Fairclough, and into Christian St (matching what we see in the Echo report). Down near the railway arch is where he lives - 22 Christian St.
                        Hi Andrew,

                        22 Christain St was Goldstein's address. Are you suggesting Schwartz was actually Goldstein? And that Schwartz/Goldstein killed Stride and was chased by Pipeman "matching what we see in the Echo report" ?

                        Cheers, George
                        Last edited by GBinOz; 09-10-2023, 01:16 AM.
                        Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Hi Andrew,

                          22 Christain St was Goldstein's address. Are you suggesting Schwartz was actually Goldstein? And that Schwartz/Goldstein killed Stride and was chased by Pipeman "matching what we see in the Echo report" ?

                          Cheers, George
                          Hi George,

                          Well, compare the route I'm suggesting for Schwartz, to a man starting at Spectacle Alley, and ...

                          Fanny Mortimer: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

                          For all intents and purposes, the two routes are identical. Tell me why.
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Goldstein took his bag to the police station, Schwartz went to the same station to give a statement.

                            Do you think anyone noticed the similarity?
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                              Goldstein took his bag to the police station, Schwartz went to the same station to give a statement.

                              Do you think anyone noticed the similarity?
                              On the evening of September 30, a man going by the name of Israel Schwartz, walked into Leman St station with an interpreter. By October 2, the story that man had given, although initially accepted, had started to falter. Midnight that night, a man going by the name of Leon Goldstein, walked into Leman St station, with an interpreter.
                              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                On the evening of September 30, a man going by the name of Israel Schwartz, walked into Leman St station with an interpreter. By October 2, the story that man had given, although initially accepted, had started to falter. Midnight that night, a man going by the name of Leon Goldstein, walked into Leman St station, with an interpreter.
                                Hi Andrew,

                                With respect, while I frequently admire your outside the box thinking, I think that Jon has shot that proposal down in flames.

                                Cheers, George
                                Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                                All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                                Comment

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