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In The Absence Of Evidence thread, c.d. said...
To which Herlock replied...
Okay, interesting thoughts that I may come back to, but let's continue on to Fiver's reply to HS...
As no one seems to have taken up Fiver's suggestion, I will.
Following is a quote of Fanny Mortimer that appeared in several Oct 1 papers. You have probably read this many times, and the most relevant section is highlighted.
Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.
The man with the black shiny bag turned out to be Leon Goldstein, a member of the Berner St club.
Notice Goldstein's direction of travel. He walked from Commercial Road, past the club, and then around the corner by the board school (which is on the opposite side to the club and the Mortimer residence). This would have Goldstein walking in the general direction of his residence - 22 Christian Street.
Also note the preposition Fanny used to indicate the direction of the man, who walked very fast down the street. Goldstein was walking to the South.
The following is the final portion of INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR. - Fanny Mortimer speaking to the Evening News, Oct 1.
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
"I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."
The writer finishes with this:
That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?
This time the man is seen walking up Berner St, and thus to the North. If you suppose that 'up' and 'down' could have been used interchangeably, or at least not with total consistency, then consider what else Fanny had to say about where the man appeared to have been coming from...
He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.
Now dear reader, let me ask you a simple question. If the man might ha' been coming from the club, in what direction might ha' he been walking in - North toward Commercial Rd, or South toward Fairclough St?
If you're having trouble visualising this, perhaps this picture will help.
Note: As far as I know, this picture is copyright, so if there is an issue copying the image from elsewhere on Casebook, see it here instead - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...192#post498192
You can see here Fanny looking toward the entrance to Dutfield's Yard. If Fanny were instead looking at the 'camera', she would be looking (more or less), in the direction of Commercial Rd.
My first point is: In the half hour or so prior to Fanny locking up for the night, she witnessed Leon Goldstein on two separate occasions. Not just once, as commonly believed (and therefore reflected in timelines).
Writing in 1935, retired Detective Chief Inspector Walter Dew said:
The club had a good name. Its members were nearly all foreigners-Russians, Germans, Poles and Continental Jews. That night there happened to be a special function at the club, and a good many men were in the building from 8.30 p.m. till past eleven o'clock. It was a wet night. The rain beat mercilessly on the windows of the room.
Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes.
This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer. After the main meeting at the clubhouse had broken up some thirty or forty members who formed the choir, remained behind to sing. Mrs. Mortimer, as she had done on many previous occasions, came out to her gate the better to hear them. For ten minutes she remained there, seeing and hearing nothing which made her at all suspicious.
Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.
At the same moment Mrs. Mortimer observed something else, silent and sinister. A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.
The woman was a little startled. The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.
It was left to Mr. Dienschitz to make the discovery that that court had been chosen by the Ripper for the dispatch of yet another unfortunate.
The shying of the steward's pony led him to investigate a huddled mass against the wall. It was the body of a woman.
Now to the Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:
W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.
I will save my comments on this and other reports till later, to prevent this post getting too long, but one more point for now...
According to Der Arbeter Fraint, Oct 5 1888...
The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.
The following is an amalgam of the words of Fanny Mortimer, Woolf Wess (as relayed by the MA), and Arbeter Fraint.
I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in, at about the time of the murder, which occurred about a quarter to one. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.
It would seem that Fiver's suggestion is right on the money.
Originally posted by c.d.
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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes
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Originally posted by Fiver
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Following is a quote of Fanny Mortimer that appeared in several Oct 1 papers. You have probably read this many times, and the most relevant section is highlighted.
Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.
The man with the black shiny bag turned out to be Leon Goldstein, a member of the Berner St club.
Notice Goldstein's direction of travel. He walked from Commercial Road, past the club, and then around the corner by the board school (which is on the opposite side to the club and the Mortimer residence). This would have Goldstein walking in the general direction of his residence - 22 Christian Street.
Also note the preposition Fanny used to indicate the direction of the man, who walked very fast down the street. Goldstein was walking to the South.
The following is the final portion of INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR. - Fanny Mortimer speaking to the Evening News, Oct 1.
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
"I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."
The writer finishes with this:
That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?
This time the man is seen walking up Berner St, and thus to the North. If you suppose that 'up' and 'down' could have been used interchangeably, or at least not with total consistency, then consider what else Fanny had to say about where the man appeared to have been coming from...
He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.
Now dear reader, let me ask you a simple question. If the man might ha' been coming from the club, in what direction might ha' he been walking in - North toward Commercial Rd, or South toward Fairclough St?
If you're having trouble visualising this, perhaps this picture will help.
Note: As far as I know, this picture is copyright, so if there is an issue copying the image from elsewhere on Casebook, see it here instead - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...192#post498192
You can see here Fanny looking toward the entrance to Dutfield's Yard. If Fanny were instead looking at the 'camera', she would be looking (more or less), in the direction of Commercial Rd.
My first point is: In the half hour or so prior to Fanny locking up for the night, she witnessed Leon Goldstein on two separate occasions. Not just once, as commonly believed (and therefore reflected in timelines).
Writing in 1935, retired Detective Chief Inspector Walter Dew said:
The club had a good name. Its members were nearly all foreigners-Russians, Germans, Poles and Continental Jews. That night there happened to be a special function at the club, and a good many men were in the building from 8.30 p.m. till past eleven o'clock. It was a wet night. The rain beat mercilessly on the windows of the room.
Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes.
This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer. After the main meeting at the clubhouse had broken up some thirty or forty members who formed the choir, remained behind to sing. Mrs. Mortimer, as she had done on many previous occasions, came out to her gate the better to hear them. For ten minutes she remained there, seeing and hearing nothing which made her at all suspicious.
Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.
At the same moment Mrs. Mortimer observed something else, silent and sinister. A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.
The woman was a little startled. The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.
It was left to Mr. Dienschitz to make the discovery that that court had been chosen by the Ripper for the dispatch of yet another unfortunate.
The shying of the steward's pony led him to investigate a huddled mass against the wall. It was the body of a woman.
Now to the Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:
W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.
I will save my comments on this and other reports till later, to prevent this post getting too long, but one more point for now...
According to Der Arbeter Fraint, Oct 5 1888...
The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.
The following is an amalgam of the words of Fanny Mortimer, Woolf Wess (as relayed by the MA), and Arbeter Fraint.
I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in, at about the time of the murder, which occurred about a quarter to one. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.
It would seem that Fiver's suggestion is right on the money.
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