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A closer look at Leon Goldstein

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  • A closer look at Leon Goldstein

    In The Absence Of Evidence thread, c.d. said...

    Originally posted by c.d. View Post

    Keep in mind that an interruption needn't have been physical, simple paranoia and thinking this is not a safe place to be could also do it as well.

    c.d.
    To which Herlock replied...

    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    True. It might not even have been Diemschutz that initially caused him to stop? A noise from somewhere nearby perhaps? Maybe someone opened the side door and went to the outside toilet a minute or two before Diemschutz returned? That person would have been facing away from the Club and so might not have seen the killer. He might not have come forward and admitted that he’d been in the yard because he didn’t want to be implicated.
    Okay, interesting thoughts that I may come back to, but let's continue on to Fiver's reply to HS...

    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    That's an interesting line of thought. We don't even have to assume someone who kept silent, perhaps Stride's killer was spooked by Morris Eagle entering the yard about 12:40, hid till Eagle entered the club, and then fled. Maybe we should take a closer look at Leon Goldstein.
    As no one seems to have taken up Fiver's suggestion, I will.

    Following is a quote of Fanny Mortimer that appeared in several Oct 1 papers. You have probably read this many times, and the most relevant section is highlighted.

    Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School. I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

    The man with the black shiny bag turned out to be Leon Goldstein, a member of the Berner St club.

    Notice Goldstein's direction of travel. He walked from Commercial Road, past the club, and then around the corner by the board school (which is on the opposite side to the club and the Mortimer residence). This would have Goldstein walking in the general direction of his residence - 22 Christian Street.

    Also note the preposition Fanny used to indicate the direction of the man, who walked very fast down the street. Goldstein was walking to the South.

    The following is the final portion of INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR. - Fanny Mortimer speaking to the Evening News, Oct 1.

    A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!

    "I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

    "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

    "Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

    "No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."


    The writer finishes with this:

    That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?

    This time the man is seen walking up Berner St, and thus to the North. If you suppose that 'up' and 'down' could have been used interchangeably, or at least not with total consistency, then consider what else Fanny had to say about where the man appeared to have been coming from...

    He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

    Now dear reader, let me ask you a simple question. If the man might ha' been coming from the club, in what direction might ha' he been walking in - North toward Commercial Rd, or South toward Fairclough St?

    If you're having trouble visualising this, perhaps this picture will help.

    Click image for larger version

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    Note: As far as I know, this picture is copyright, so if there is an issue copying the image from elsewhere on Casebook, see it here instead - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...192#post498192

    You can see here Fanny looking toward the entrance to Dutfield's Yard. If Fanny were instead looking at the 'camera', she would be looking (more or less), in the direction of Commercial Rd.

    My first point is: In the half hour or so prior to Fanny locking up for the night, she witnessed Leon Goldstein on two separate occasions. Not just once, as commonly believed (and therefore reflected in timelines).

    Writing in 1935, retired Detective Chief Inspector Walter Dew said:

    The club had a good name. Its members were nearly all foreigners-Russians, Germans, Poles and Continental Jews. That night there happened to be a special function at the club, and a good many men were in the building from 8.30 p.m. till past eleven o'clock. It was a wet night. The rain beat mercilessly on the windows of the room.

    Not a single suspicious sound was heard by any of the men inside the building, but it is more than probable that a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes.

    This woman was a Mrs. Mortimer. After the main meeting at the clubhouse had broken up some thirty or forty members who formed the choir, remained behind to sing. Mrs. Mortimer, as she had done on many previous occasions, came out to her gate the better to hear them. For ten minutes she remained there, seeing and hearing nothing which made her at all suspicious.

    Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

    At the same moment Mrs. Mortimer observed something else, silent and sinister. A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court.

    The woman was a little startled. The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.

    It was left to Mr. Dienschitz to make the discovery that that court had been chosen by the Ripper for the dispatch of yet another unfortunate.

    The shying of the steward's pony led him to investigate a huddled mass against the wall. It was the body of a woman.


    Now to the Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:

    W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

    I will save my comments on this and other reports till later, to prevent this post getting too long, but one more point for now...

    According to Der Arbeter Fraint, Oct 5 1888...

    The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.

    The following is an amalgam of the words of Fanny Mortimer, Woolf Wess (as relayed by the MA), and Arbeter Fraint.

    I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in, at about the time of the murder, which occurred about a quarter to one. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

    It would seem that Fiver's suggestion is right on the money.
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

  • #2
    Hi nbfn

    I’m afraid I don’t agree with your conclusions. FM only saw LG once, and it was not necessarily at quarter to one.
    She says it was just before she turned in, so closer to one.

    That she in paper is quoted as saying down, another up, is not enough to establish that she saw him twice. She might have used both prepositions during the same interview, for instance.

    Comment


    • #3
      some dude seen walking down the street by a worthless witness around the time of the murder. thats about as close as we need to get with him.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting that Dew says "The club had a good name."

        He didn't think it was full of dangerous anarchists, then.
        ​​​​

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
          Interesting that Dew says "The club had a good name."

          He didn't think it was full of dangerous anarchists, then.
          ​​​​
          dew said alot of interesting things. some of them even true.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #6
            NotBlamedForNothing, thank you for taking the time to put this together. The picture is especially helpful. It is clear that we have contradictions between the accounts. A man who "might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club" towards Fanny Mortimer would be traveling the opposite direction from a man "who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School."

            That could mean two trips. If so, it would appear that Goldstein first went "down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School" and that he later returned to the Socialist Club without being detected by Fanny Mortimer and still later he left from Dutfield's Yard into Berner Street and went away from his home. That's certainly odd, but it isn't proof of guilt, either.

            Alternatively, one newspaper account could have been garbled or dramatized by a reporter. It's certainly more dramatic to have a man with a bag leaving Dutfield's Yard just before the murder is discovered than for a man to just walk down the street. If Goldstein was just walking down the street, then that is all he was - a man walking down the street. If Goldstein left Dutfield's Yard just before Fanny Mortimer went back inside, then odds are good that Goldstein interrupted Stride's killer or that Goldstein was the killer. I don't suppose there is any way to determine if Goldstein had an alibi for any of the other killings.

            Dew's account is interesting, but it is written half-a-century after Stride's murder. It contains some clear errors. Dew said "The rain beat mercilessly on the windows of the room", but inquest testimony is that it was not raining at the time. Dew said that Fanny Mortimer was "living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court", but she was not living a few houses down Berner Street, not in one residences in Dutfield's Yard. Dew claims that Fanny Mortimer saw "A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court", but both versions of what Mortimer saw given at the time have her spotting the man with the bag on Berner's Street, not inside Dutfield's Yard. Overall, I don't think we should take much stock in Dew's account.

            Comment


            • #7
              Whatever Goldstein did that night, the police knew about and verified he had been in Spectacle Alley, before Berner Street, which in turn suggests he walked down Berner Street and around the board school as Mortimer noted.


              Click image for larger version

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              dustymiller
              aka drstrange

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
                Hi nbfn

                I’m afraid I don’t agree with your conclusions. FM only saw LG once, and it was not necessarily at quarter to one.
                She says it was just before she turned in, so closer to one.

                That she in paper is quoted as saying down, another up, is not enough to establish that she saw him twice. She might have used both prepositions during the same interview, for instance.
                Hi Kattrup.

                You might be afraid, but I'm Not

                Let's take an even closer look at this chap. Now as Fanny Mortimer said...

                He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

                In this case, what side of the street might ha' he been coming from - the club side or board school side?

                Fanny also said (in another quote)...

                He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School.

                In this case, what side of the street is the man walking on when he rounds the corner - the club side or board school side?

                So there are two variables - the side of the street, and the direction of travel.

                Both quotes provide unambiguous information about both variables. This is not just an up/down distinction, as you are trying to make out. Having said that, Fanny's use of the prepositions 'up', and 'down', is fully consistent with both her other comments, and the more general use of these terms in relation to Berner street. To head up Berner street means to travel toward #1, North, and Commercial Rd. Heading down is the opposite.

                This is all quite easy to understand, but you have to want to understand it.

                Regarding the time not necessarily being 12:45; that's true - I don't know that for a fact, just as a 1am murder time (compatible with the notion of interruption) is not known for a fact. However, Arbeter Fraint's 12:45 estimate is fascinating for a number reasons:
                • 12:45 was the same time given by Israel Schwartz, yet there is no reference to the Schwartz incident in AF, or even anything vaguely resembling it
                • It is quite precise; it is not something generic like 'a few minutes', or 'several minutes'. Nor is it a broad range of minutes. E.g. "After 20 minutes to one, but before the steward arrived at 1am".
                • It precludes the possibility of interruption. Interruption would be more like 15 seconds to one, than 15 minutes. Anything more than a minute or two before 1am, is outside the scope of a murderer who is both interrupted, and committing the crime at close to 1am.
                These points lead me to believe that either the club knew more than they let on, or that members of the club did indeed 'let on' - providing information that supports AF's 12:45 estimate - but modern researchers have missed this information.
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                  Interesting that Dew says "The club had a good name."

                  He didn't think it was full of dangerous anarchists, then.
                  ​​​​
                  Just one
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fiver View Post
                    NotBlamedForNothing, thank you for taking the time to put this together. The picture is especially helpful.
                    Thanks Fiver. The pictures are not mine, of course. Here is another.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    The Mortimer residence is two doors down from the club (just in view). Seeing a man walk from the vicinity of Dutfield's Yard to the other side of Berner street and on towards Commercial Rd, is totally different to seeing the same man walk from Commercial Rd and continuing on around the board school corner (left of picture, just out of view). Fanny knew what she was talking about.

                    It is clear that we have contradictions between the accounts. A man who "might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club" towards Fanny Mortimer would be traveling the opposite direction from a man "who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School."

                    That could mean two trips. If so, it would appear that Goldstein first went "down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School" and that he later returned to the Socialist Club without being detected by Fanny Mortimer and still later he left from Dutfield's Yard into Berner Street and went away from his home. That's certainly odd, but it isn't proof of guilt, either.
                    It certainly isn't proof of guilt, but so far you and I are only ones willing to acknowledge the anomaly.

                    A key word here is 'previously'...

                    ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

                    Previously to what? The answer is; to Fanny's final period on her doorstep. We know she was in and out at least once, before locking up for the night...

                    I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

                    So Fanny had previously seen Goldstein walking around the board school corner, when outside. During her final (and probably second) doorstep vigil, she saw him again, just after he exited the yard, and again carrying his black bag.

                    On the first occasion, he was presumably walking home (he lived at 22 Christian street), and the bag allegedly contained empty cigarette boxes. What did the bag contain (if anything), when he was seen moments after leaving Dutfield's Yard? Had he left the boxes at home? If not, why go there?

                    Alternatively, one newspaper account could have been garbled or dramatized by a reporter. It's certainly more dramatic to have a man with a bag leaving Dutfield's Yard just before the murder is discovered than for a man to just walk down the street.
                    The garbled or dramatized report excuse would require some evidence before I would consider it seriously.

                    If Goldstein was just walking down the street, then that is all he was - a man walking down the street.
                    If that were the case, why did Wess feel it so necessary to go to the police, and the press? What is the big deal about walking down a street carrying a work bag?

                    The MA report again....

                    W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

                    At about the time of the murder? What time was that and according to who?

                    ... he persuaded him last night ... to accompany him to the Leman-street station ... Why did Goldstein need persuading? Surely he would have wanted to be cleared of any doubt?

                    ... he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory.

                    Fanny Mortimer's comments indicate that his statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, were very likely not satisfactory.
                    Furthermore, did anyone at Leman street witness the contents of the bag? What about on the night of the murder - who independently witnessed the empty cigarette boxes?

                    If Goldstein left Dutfield's Yard just before Fanny Mortimer went back inside, then odds are good that Goldstein interrupted Stride's killer or that Goldstein was the killer. I don't suppose there is any way to determine if Goldstein had an alibi for any of the other killings.
                    I agree with this. Mortimer's comments contradict Goldstein. Did anyone else see Goldstein, and corroborate his timing and whereabouts? I don't think so.

                    Dew's account is interesting, but it is written half-a-century after Stride's murder. It contains some clear errors. Dew said "The rain beat mercilessly on the windows of the room", but inquest testimony is that it was not raining at the time. Dew said that Fanny Mortimer was "living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court", but she was not living a few houses down Berner Street, not in one residences in Dutfield's Yard. Dew claims that Fanny Mortimer saw "A man, whom she judged to be about thirty, dressed in black, and carrying a small, shiny black bag, hurried furtively along the opposite side of the court", but both versions of what Mortimer saw given at the time have her spotting the man with the bag on Berner's Street, not inside Dutfield's Yard. Overall, I don't think we should take much stock in Dew's account.
                    I don't think you have this right. Dew did not suppose that Mortimer lived up Dutfield's Yard. Dew:

                    The court had no lamps and was in darkness. On one side were cottages occupied mostly by cigarette-makers and tailors. The whole length of the other side was taken up by the rear of a social club known as The Working Men's Educational Club. A back entrance linked the building with the court and was in fairly frequent use.

                    Fanny, like the club building, lived on the 'other side' of the court...

                    ... a woman living in one of the cottages on the other side of the court was the only person ever to see the Ripper ...

                    Do you really think Dew thought Fanny stood in the yard when doing this...?

                    Mrs. Mortimer, as she had done on many previous occasions, came out to her gate the better to hear them. For ten minutes she remained there, seeing and hearing nothing which made her at all suspicious.

                    Or that she was in the yard observing this...?

                    The man's movements had been so quiet that she had not seen him until he was abreast of her. His head was turned away, as though he did not wish to be seen. A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.

                    Of course Dew knew the Mortimer's lived on Berner street!
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Why is people with dubious suspects, always base their theories around the most unreliable witnesses?
                      dustymiller
                      aka drstrange

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                        Why is people with dubious suspects, always base their theories around the most unreliable witnesses?
                        cause its all they got dr strange.
                        like the latest troll thats just popped its head out of its little hole again.
                        and like most trolls it will cause trouble for a while and then run off and hide under the bridge till its safe to pop its troll head out again hahaha. silly troll back to your hole.

                        thats a good troll now. off you go
                        Last edited by Abby Normal; 05-01-2021, 06:25 AM.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                          Why is people with dubious suspects, always base their theories around the most unreliable witnesses?
                          They don't always what about Cross? He's a dubious suspect and his theory is based on him finding body and then a load of bullshit dreamt up by some crackpots.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                            Why is people with dubious suspects, always base their theories around the most unreliable witnesses?
                            Because they are desperate for a name. And perhaps more desperate for the attention of being the one to supply that name.

                            Any port in a storm.
                            G U T

                            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Did Fanny Mortimer hallucinate seeing Leon Goldstein leaving Dutfield's Yard?

                              Or is the real problem here; she did see him do just that, you know that she saw him, but you don't want that to be the truth?

                              I strongly suspect the later.
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment

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