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A closer look at Leon Goldstein

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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi Andrew,

    With respect, while I frequently admire your outside the box thinking, I think that Jon has shot that proposal down in flames.

    Cheers, George
    George,
    why do you think it is that modern researchers have been unable to determine who Israel Schwartz was?
    Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      George,
      why do you think it is that modern researchers have been unable to determine who Israel Schwartz was?
      Hi Andrew,

      I haven't really followed the state of research on Shwartz's identity, so I can't offer an opinion. But I don't think it was an alias used by Goldstein for the reason proffered by Jon above.

      Cheers, George
      Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

        Hi Andrew,

        I haven't really followed the state of research on Shwartz's identity, so I can't offer an opinion. But I don't think it was an alias used by Goldstein for the reason proffered by Jon above.

        Cheers, George
        George,
        don't you think I would have been anticipating Jon's response?
        The two men who went to Leman St station, did not arrive carrying birth certificates and passports. How do we know that the man Wess persuaded to go to the police with him, was indeed the man with the black bag?
        Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

          George,
          don't you think I would have been anticipating Jon's response?
          The two men who went to Leman St station, did not arrive carrying birth certificates and passports. How do we know that the man Wess persuaded to go to the police with him, was indeed the man with the black bag?
          Hi Andrew,

          If you are suggesting that Wess took a stand-in for Goldstein to Leman St to prevent the police noticing that Schwartz and Goldstein were the same person, that's a bridge too far for me. I would be more amenable to the idea that Schwartz may have killed Stride and been observed by Pipeman doing so, and concocted the story as a cover up.

          Cheers, George
          Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

          All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

            Hi Andrew,

            If you are suggesting that Wess took a stand-in for Goldstein to Leman St to prevent the police noticing that Schwartz and Goldstein were the same person, that's a bridge too far for me. I would be more amenable to the idea that Schwartz may have killed Stride and been observed by Pipeman doing so, and concocted the story as a cover up.

            Cheers, George
            The stand-in for Goldstein would seem to me to be the easier of the two scenarios to pull-off. Once the stand-in - perhaps a relative - has been persuaded to go with Wess, what does he need to do when they get there? Stand there while Wess does most the talking, say his name, and sign a piece of paper? I don't get the impression from Wess's comments to the Morning Advertiser, that the duty officer was hard to convince.
            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Andrew, speculation is all well and good when it is kept to a minimum. The existing files have too many gaps of missing information for us to avoid a bit of speculation. We have to be careful not to over do it, having characters adopt the persona of another individual to fool police, is more to do with conspiracy than reality.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                Andrew, speculation is all well and good when it is kept to a minimum. The existing files have too many gaps of missing information for us to avoid a bit of speculation. We have to be careful not to over do it, having characters adopt the persona of another individual to fool police, is more to do with conspiracy than reality.
                So, what is the innocent explanation for why Wess seems to have waited until nearly Wednesday to take Goldstein to the police, which just happened to be after doubts had been raised over Schwartz's story?
                Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                  The Jewish Sabbath runs from Friday Midnight to Saturday Midnight, I'm not sure how that affects the scenario.
                  Shabbat runs from sunsetn Friday and sundset Saturday.
                  "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                  "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                    So, what is the innocent explanation for why Wess seems to have waited until nearly Wednesday to take Goldstein to the police, which just happened to be after doubts had been raised over Schwartz's story?
                    This is from the Morning Advertiser of 3rd Oct.

                    "W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller."

                    Does that answer your question?
                    Regards, Jon S.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                      Does that answer your question?
                      Obviously, you have no have no idea why Wess waited until very late Tuesday - the same day the public were made aware of the police doubting the Hungarians' story.
                      Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Interesting thread NBFN.


                        I find the idea that Goldstein and Schwartz may have been the same man quite fascinating.

                        Can it be conclusively proven that they were different men?

                        If not, then I suggest you may be on to something.

                        It's good to hypothesize when there's still scope for particular scenarios.

                        I always find that those who try to shut you down or try and distract from your point by shifting focus from your initial hypothesis are better to not engage with; because unfortunately there are those who dislike the hypothetical approach.

                        I personally enjoy the approach as long as it's within reason and as far as I can see so far from this thread; your hypothesis warrants closer scrutiny and attention, and so well done for that.


                        RD



                        "Great minds, don't think alike"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                          Interesting thread NBFN.


                          I find the idea that Goldstein and Schwartz may have been the same man quite fascinating.

                          Can it be conclusively proven that they were different men?

                          If not, then I suggest you may be on to something.

                          It's good to hypothesize when there's still scope for particular scenarios.

                          I always find that those who try to shut you down or try and distract from your point by shifting focus from your initial hypothesis are better to not engage with; because unfortunately there are those who dislike the hypothetical approach.

                          I personally enjoy the approach as long as it's within reason and as far as I can see so far from this thread; your hypothesis warrants closer scrutiny and attention, and so well done for that.


                          RD
                          Thanks RD.

                          As no one seems to know who Israel Schwartz actually was, it would seem to me difficult to prove that the two identities were two different men.

                          The following is something I noticed way back, which I still find a bit fascinating.

                          Consider Leon Goldstein's path through Berner St and beyond. Fanny Mortimer tells us:

                          It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

                          Presumably he was on his way home to 22 Christian St.

                          Now Schwartz. He turned into Berner St. from Commercial Rd., just like Goldstein. At the gateway, he crossed the street, and headed to the board school corner, just like Goldstein. Then we have the very Schwartz-like chase incident, in the Echo/Scotsman...

                          ... a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is interesected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street, and Christian Street ...

                          This was at about 12:45 - the same time given by Schwartz. Finally, we are told that Schwartz ran as far as the railway arch, but not which railway arch. However, if it were the arch at the end of Christian St, then we find that the routes taken by Goldstein and Schwartz, to reach home and the railway arch, respectively, are essentially identical.

                          Coincidence, or not? My sense with Schwartz is that the story he gave to police was constructed, not out of nothing, but out of three or four pieces of real events, stitched together to make a partially coherent story. Another piece of that story, probably consists of the presence on the street of Eagle and Lave.
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            Obviously, you have no have no idea why Wess waited until very late Tuesday - the same day the public were made aware of the police doubting the Hungarians' story.
                            I don't, but you are implying Wess knew but held back, and this report doesn't suggest that.
                            "he (Wess) persuaded him (Goldstein) last night to go to police".
                            The article also suggests Wess only just found out.
                            Last edited by Wickerman; 09-11-2023, 01:41 PM.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                              Interesting thread NBFN.


                              I find the idea that Goldstein and Schwartz may have been the same man quite fascinating.

                              Can it be conclusively proven that they were different men?

                              If not, then I suggest you may be on to something.

                              It's good to hypothesize when there's still scope for particular scenarios.

                              I always find that those who try to shut you down or try and distract from your point by shifting focus from your initial hypothesis are better to not engage with; because unfortunately there are those who dislike the hypothetical approach.

                              I personally enjoy the approach as long as it's within reason and as far as I can see so far from this thread; your hypothesis warrants closer scrutiny and attention, and so well done for that.

                              RD
                              RD.... have you had your morning coffee yet?
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                Obviously, you have no have no idea why Wess waited until very late Tuesday - the same day the public were made aware of the police doubting the Hungarians' story.
                                Hi Andrew,

                                I don't pretend to know, but might that just have been because of the very reason you mention - that the public were made aware that the police were doubting Schwartz's story of a man assaulting a woman close to where Stride was found dead - and that the police might shift their attention from Schwartz's Mr. BS to this mysterious man with his shiny bag that had passed through Berner Street around the time of the murder?

                                Just a thought.

                                Cheers,
                                Frank
                                "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                                Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                                Comment

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