A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[Fiver]

Stride didnt slip anywhere, she isnt avoiding being seen, and she is seen on the street at 12:35 by Smith, then she is not seen by any witness to the street after that. Including Eagle and Lave, who should have had a fabulous view of who was at the gates and street, or in the passageway. They said no-one was around.

Smith did not see Stride enter Dutfield's Yard. Mortimer did not see Stride enter Dutfield's Yard. Nobody saw Stride enter the Yard. Smith did see Stride with a man, a man who could have entered the yard with her.

PC Smith was not the last person to claim to have seen Stride alive. James Brown said he saw Stride with a man at about 12:45am with a man, a man who could have entered the yard with her.. Schwartz' account also gives a time of 12:45am.

Nobody had a fabulous view of what was in Dutfield's Yard. Diemschutz only noticed the body because his horse shied. Eagle said it was too dark for him to see if the body was there. Wess said it was too dark to tell if the body was there when he left at 12:15am. PC Lamb said it was so dark he had to use his lantern to tell what the object was. Dr Blackwell said "...it was very dark, and what I saw was by the aid of a policeman's lantern."

Of course multiple witnesses say they were alerted to the body downstairs as early as 12:40, so how long was she alive after Smith left?

PC Lamb, Johnston, and Mortimer support Diemschutz, Eagle, and West that the body was found around 1am.

Hershberg and Kozebrodsky give an early discovery story that the body was found 15 to 20 minutes before 1am. Kozebrodsky was a member of the club. Apparently he didn't get the Conspiracy memo.

Spooner gives a time that contradicts everybody, placing the discovery 10 or more minutes before anyone else and 5 to 10 minutes before PC Smith saw her alive. Spooner doesn't just contradict Smith. He contradicts Hershberg and Kozebrodsky. He contradicts Brown. He contradicts Schwartz. He contradicts Mortimer. He contradicts Goldstein. He contradicts Diemschutz, Eagle, West, Lamb, and Johnston. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Stride slipped unseen into the Yard, unnoticed by Mortimer and the young couple, so it's quite possible that her killer was able to leave unnoticed before the police arrived. PC Lamb testified that he thought this was possible.

Let's suppose Stride went into the yard with the man seen by Smith - the man with the parcel. He kills her and then leaves before anyone notices. The problem with this scenario is that most timelines have Eagle returning to the club after Smith passes it. Could Eagle really have walked up the passageway, and not noticed a body?

The other scenario that would seem to escape the attention of Mortimer, is Stride and her killer entering the yard just after Mortimer locks up, but early enough not to be seen by Diemschitz. This scenario also has a problem - the extent of blood flow...

Julius Minsky (club member): The utmost joviality was prevailing when a member rushed excitedly into the room, and shouted out that the body of a murdered woman had been found in the yard. The singing was at once stopped, and all present rushed downstairs in a state of the utmost alarm into the yard. The first thing he noticed was the pool of blood by the kitchen door, and then glancing up the yard to the spot where Mr. Diemschitz was holding a lighted match in his hand, he noticed the body of a woman stretched out by the side of the wall.

Neither scenario is entirely persuasive. So, what really happened? Perhaps the killer remained in the yard after the murder but left before police arrived. Phillip Krantz gave the impression at the inquest that he had been in the editor's office alone, but we know from Arbeter Fraint that that was not the case. Should we take a closer look at Yaffa?

[Michael W Richards]

But the street was empty, deserted, as per several witnesses...so where is this slippery dude coming from?

At that time, yes. But what if he is a street away?

c.d.

Then youd have to assume that Fanny, who is at her door the last 10 minutes of that hour, and the young couple, somehow missed this stealthy slicer creeping up the road. You make this guy far too cinematic...slipping in and out of the shadows, unseen by all, a phantom menace....Jack it would seem was at ease and playing a part when he met his victims, at least that how he meets Polly and Annie. He is out playing a potential client, who knows, he might have toffed himself up to better sell his story. He wasnt slinking...or jumping from shadow to shadow...or someone who just spontaneously appears. He was out at night where people might see him and to act and look anything but harmless wouldnt work very well when trying to pick up street women that Fall.

And on that last note, consider BSM. Seemingly harmless? Hardly.

[Michael W Richards]

That's not an accurate assessment. The police did not ignore the club, but they didn't focus only on the club. Edward Spooner was not a member of the club - he testified to being searched and examined. Inspector Reid testified that this was done to "residents in the yard and persons who had come there and been shut in by the police". The houses in the Yard were searched twice and their persons also examined. A nearby loft was searched. So was the sack manufacturing store off of the Yard and the waterclosets. People at the houses on the street were questioned. The walls surrounded the Yard were examined in daylight, looking for signs of them having been scaled.

Stride slipped unseen into the Yard, unnoticed by Mortimer and the young couple, so it's quite possible that her killer was able to leave unnoticed before the police arrived. PC Lamb testified that he thought this was possible.

As I posted its clear that the first instincts about this crime scene were that they should close the gates to prevent anyone from entering or exiting, then systematically check everyone on the premises,...the club premises and the yards. Stride didnt slip anywhere, she isnt avoiding being seen, and she is seen on the street at 12:35 by Smith, then she is not seen by any witness to the street after that. Including Eagle and Lave, who should have had a fabulous view of who was at the gates and street, or in the passageway. They said no-one was around.

Of course multiple witnesses say they were alerted to the body downstairs as early as 12:40, so how long was she alive after Smith left?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi RD,

The Evening News of 1 Oct details three interviews with women who were standing in their doorway that night. Two of those interviews are obviously with Fanny Mortimer, but the third was with the wife of a well-to-do artisan (FM was married to a Car man). Here is an extract:

" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

IMO this was a possible report of Goldstein leaving the murder site to establish an alibi at the Spectacle Cafe, but in that view I form a small minority of one. this has been the subject of previous discussion, and it has been pointed out to me that, while Berner St sloped noticeable from north to south, up and down actually mean the same thing. My point is, that there is no need for your speculation about an about-face, as someone was seen headed north that night, carrying a black bag.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I've been thinking about your reason for supposing that the woman who was quoted as saying "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club", was not Fanny Mortimer. You state that the third interview was with the wife of a well-to-do artisan, which could not be Fanny as she was married to a Car man. The Evening News states:

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

The reporter used the adverb 'apparently' when describing the woman's appearance. Why, do you think? Was it a matter of him making a judgement call, or did she tell him that that was the case? I would suppose it to have been a bit odd for him to ask the woman for her husband's profession, but not it would seem, her name.

I came across this in the MA of Oct 2:

A representative yesterday morning visited the lodging-house in Flower and Dean-street, Spitalfields, where the murdered woman, Elizabeth Stride, passed the day before her death. Turning off the High-street, Whitechapel, on the left going east, one enters Commercial-street, and some few turnings down on the right is situated Flower and Dean-street, a narrow thoroughfare with perhaps, for the East-end, a fairly presentable appearance. One side of the street is mainly occupied by a huge pile of modern buildings, intended for occupation by the families of artisans, and rented almost exclusively by a colony of middle-class Jews. The other side presents a far more dingy appearance. The brickwork of the houses is blackened with age, and doors and windows alike present the only too familiar aspects betokening the abodes of the extreme poor. Most of the houses are registered lodging-houses, and it was in one of these places, at the entrance to the street from the main road, that poor "Long Liz," as she was familiarly known by her associates, spent her last night on earth.

No doubt those families of artisans would have appeared well-to-do compared with those on the other side.

Returning to the EN report, was this a conversation, as the report states, or an interview, as the sub-heading indicates (INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.)? The difference being, how did the woman perceive the situation? Had she believed she was talking to a man on the street, she might have conveyed more than she had when knowing she was speaking to the press. That is speculative but worth a thought, especially when considering the differences in the claims made by FM and "Mrs Artisan".

Mortimer: There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates.
...
If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him.

Mrs Artisan: I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.
...
He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

What other reasons do you have for supposing these were different women?

[Fiver]

The police locked the gates, and searched everyone..hands and clothes for blood, etc. They also searched the club, upstairs and downstairs. Then the yard, the stables, interviewed all those in attendance....so its pretty clear that initially it appeared to the police that these men were the only ones around who could have accessed that location...and without being seen from the street. Yes, Jack might have slipped in unseen from the street, with Fanny missing seeing him and the young couple missing seeing him. But the street was empty, deserted, as per several witnesses...so where is this slippery dude coming from?

That's not an accurate assessment. The police did not ignore the club, but they didn't focus only on the club. Edward Spooner was not a member of the club - he testified to being searched and examined. Inspector Reid testified that this was done to "residents in the yard and persons who had come there and been shut in by the police". The houses in the Yard were searched twice and their persons also examined. A nearby loft was searched. So was the sack manufacturing store off of the Yard and the waterclosets. People at the houses on the street were questioned. The walls surrounded the Yard were examined in daylight, looking for signs of them having been scaled.

Stride slipped unseen into the Yard, unnoticed by Mortimer and the young couple, so it's quite possible that her killer was able to leave unnoticed before the police arrived. PC Lamb testified that he thought this was possible.

[c.d.]

The internet says that someone walking at the speed of 3 miles an hour for ten minutes can cover a distance of half a mile.

c.d.

[c.d.]

But the street was empty, deserted, as per several witnesses...so where is this slippery dude coming from?

At that time, yes. But what if he is a street away?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

It certainly is possible that a club attendee murdered Stride, but that is not the only possibility. There were also three tenements off of Dutfield's Yard. Stride entered the yard from the street and no one saw her do it, so it is possible that she was not alone when she entered the yard.

Once the police arrived everyone still at the club or who had come into the Yard were detained by the police until they had been searched by Inspector Reid, examined for bloodstains by Dr Phillips, and given their names and addresses to the police. Whoever killed Stride almost certainly left before the police arrived.

The police locked the gates, and searched everyone..hands and clothes for blood, etc. They also searched the club, upstairs and downstairs. Then the yard, the stables, interviewed all those in attendance....so its pretty clear that initially it appeared to the police that these men were the only ones around who could have accessed that location...and without being seen from the street. Yes, Jack might have slipped in unseen from the street, with Fanny missing seeing him and the young couple missing seeing him. But the street was empty, deserted, as per several witnesses...so where is this slippery dude coming from?

[Fiver]

You may find it "unlikely" a club attendee committed this murder, but the fact remains that they were the only people who could have done it and not be seen from the street.

It certainly is possible that a club attendee murdered Stride, but that is not the only possibility. There were also three tenements off of Dutfield's Yard. Stride entered the yard from the street and no one saw her do it, so it is possible that she was not alone when she entered the yard.

Once the police arrived everyone still at the club or who had come into the Yard were detained by the police until they had been searched by Inspector Reid, examined for bloodstains by Dr Phillips, and given their names and addresses to the police. Whoever killed Stride almost certainly left before the police arrived.

[Michael W Richards]

With a pub closing time of midnight Edward Spooners story has him seeing the running men around 12:40-12:45. Which is effectively what he said at the Inquest...."On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named".

[Michael W Richards]

I then pointed out how close the Settles St pub was to the Beehive, and you respond by repeating your 20-minute claim. The problem is, we don't need any suggestions for how long Spooner took to walk that distance, or when he walked it - he tells us! Let's read him again.

Spooner: On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the [Beehive] at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

He leaves the beer-shop at 12:30, walks to the top of Christian St, pauses there for a few minutes, and then walks to outside the Beehive. That's about 5 minutes of walking at a leisurely stroll, so about 8 minutes total. Your 20-minute claim is arbitrary, but your theory requires both this and ignoring that most press reports quote Spooner leaving the beer-shop at 12:30, not 12:00.



Spooner wasn't one of 3 witnesses who stated they were alerted to a body in the passageway at that time, nor was Lave, nor was Eagle. So, who were these 3 witnesses?

I believe you need to review the above underlined sections. I see your using the 12:30am closing time, which at that time in the Met was 12:00 I believe.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Actually I believe I did...I suggested about 20 minute casual walk with the young lady to just outside the Beehive, then about 25 minutes loitering there...and then he sees the men running. Around 12:40-45.

I then pointed out how close the Settles St pub was to the Beehive, and you respond by repeating your 20-minute claim. The problem is, we don't need any suggestions for how long Spooner took to walk that distance, or when he walked it - he tells us! Let's read him again.

Spooner: On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the [Beehive] at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

He leaves the beer-shop at 12:30, walks to the top of Christian St, pauses there for a few minutes, and then walks to outside the Beehive. That's about 5 minutes of walking at a leisurely stroll, so about 8 minutes total. Your 20-minute claim is arbitrary, but your theory requires both this and ignoring that most press reports quote Spooner leaving the beer-shop at 12:30, not 12:00.

When Israel says he saw Liz and 2 other men on the street in front of the gates, and James Brown says he saw Liz with a young man down the street, and 15 minutes before Louis said he even arrived there. Around the time Eagle says he saw nothing but "couldnt be sure" a body wasnt just behind that open gate, and the time Lave says he was looking out into the street from the entrance. About 10-15 minutes before Lamb gets there with Eagle, almost half an hour from Johnson arriving there. Around the time 3 witnesses stated they were alerted to a body in the passageway, and a few minutes before Issac K, Louis and Issac[s] the men seen by Spooner, and Eagle, go for help.

Spooner wasn't one of 3 witnesses who stated they were alerted to a body in the passageway at that time, nor was Lave, nor was Eagle. So, who were these 3 witnesses?

[c.d.]

May be a silly thought

Hello NW,

A friendly suggestion from a veteran of these boards. Keep both hands up in front of your face when you post. You'll thank me.

c.d.

[New Waterloo]

What about another theory (big yawn by some! I don't blame them) What about if everyone's involved. Please don't give up at this point. What about that when BSM arrives and he starts his pushing and pulling a larger confrontation takes place. You know. Big argument, Fanny Mortimer and many others says rowdiness is quite normal at the club. Bit of a punch up. Liz gets her throat cut. In that dark gateway who knows whos pushing pulling who. Gets out of hand. The participants clear off back into the club or the street. The Louis drives his cart in and sees the body. Participants deny all knowledge. Don't want to be involved in a murder. Who the participants were well thats anybody's guess but clearly some are keeping their mouths shut because there was activity in the street it would be impossible not to see anything such as suggested by Lave.

I think we are viewing the club in the wrong light. It was a busy venue. I think it was 11.30 approx when about 70 people left the club, I think. I don't suppose they all went straight home?

May be a silly thought

NW