A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[GBinOz]

Or this , At 12.45 am Schwartz saw Strides killer try to drag her into the street, but turned her around and threw her down on the footway

Dr Blackwell arrived at the Murder scene and consulted his watch at 1.16 am
[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - Dr Blackwell From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived.
Bang on time for Strides assault and subsequent Murder , Dont think for a minute someone else came along and Murdered Stride after that event ..........Ludicrous.

Guess what ? The man who threw Stride to the ground and called out Lipski to Schwartz was more likey than any other person to be her killer. Anything else is Speculation and Conjecture

Hi Fishy,

In the midst of a massive manhunt for a serial killer do you really think that Stride would have reacted to being assaulted by screaming three times, but not very loudly. If BSman took her by the arm to pull her out of the yard and she swivelled around to pull away from him and he let go, she would have fallen to the ground in a manner that would have appeared to Schwartz to her being thrown to the ground. The entire Schwartz event would have played out in under two minutes and in that time there were three or four men in Stride's immediate vicinity, BSman, Pipeman, Parcelman and Schwartz, so no-one had to "come along", they were already there. Blackwell's time had a ten minute margin so it cannot exclude any of the possibilities, and it was stipulated that she bled out over a number of minutes so time of attack was not TOD. Stride either knew BSMan or did not consider him a threat - otherwise she would have screamed her head off. I think Parcelman showed Stride too much public attention and affection to fit the JtR profile. My opinion is that Pipeman is the most likely candidate for the killer, and maybe JtR, as an opportunist, and that he was interrupted by Parcelman. Since there is no evidence for anything in the Smith to Diemshitz time gap, it all comes down to "Speculation and Conjecture".

P.S. for Andrew - if Goldstein's north and south sighting were at the same time they must have been the same event. "A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.". Which corner might that have been?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The title of this thread is "a closer look at Leon Goldstein", and is an examination of him as a person of interest. Of all the C5 victims, Stride is the one that is questioned as even being a ripper victim but she is the one that seems to garner the most interest, comment and suspects.

Suggested as a suspect for Stride's murder at various times have been: BSMan, Parcelman, Pipeman, Kidney, Eagle, Lave, Letchford, Schwartz, Spooner, Bury, Kosminski, Thompson, Druitt, Sutton, the Three Jacks (Diemshitz, Kozebrodski and Friedman) and of course Goldstein. Did I miss anyone's favourite?

So where does Leon rate in this list of proposed contenders?

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

In the midst of a massive manhunt for a serial killer do you really think that Stride would have reacted to being assaulted by screaming three times, but not very loudly. If BSman took her by the arm to pull her out of the yard and she swivelled around to pull away from him and he let go, she would have fallen to the ground in a manner that would have appeared to Schwartz to her being thrown to the ground. The entire Schwartz event would have played out in under two minutes and in that time there were three or four men in Stride's immediate vicinity, BSman, Pipeman, Parcelman and Schwartz, so no-one had to "come along", they were already there. Blackwell's time had a ten minute margin so it cannot exclude any of the possibilities, and it was stipulated that she bled out over a number of minutes so time of attack was not TOD. Stride either knew BSMan or did not consider him a threat - otherwise she would have screamed her head off. I think Parcelman showed Stride too much public attention and affection to fit the JtR profile. My opinion is that Pipeman is the most likely candidate for the killer, and maybe JtR, as an opportunist, and that he was interrupted by Parcelman. Since there is no evidence for anything in the Smith to Diemshitz time gap, it all comes down to "Speculation and Conjecture".

P.S. for Andrew - if Goldstein's north and south sighting were at the same time they must have been the same event. "A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.". Which corner might that have been?

Cheers, George

Hi George. Anwser to your first question is yes , we have a witness that confirms she did .

One was there, Parcelman [which ill get back to ]

Pipeman followed Schwartz down the street why would he double back to kill stride? , BSman ,well we know what he was doing.

Im not getting into A debate whether Baxters time had a ten minute margin or not, he gave he time of death which fits perfectly with time stride was most probably killed


Now, Parcel man who was he and who claimed him there in the vacinity?

Regards Fishy

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Now, Parcel man who was he and who claimed him there in the vacinity?

He was the man seen by Smith, Fanny, and Eagle, handing out packets of crisps on Berner street.

Liz Stride offered some of her packet to the BS man, but he hated chicken flavor, so in disgust he turned her around and threw her down on the footway. The crisps went everywhere, and were later discovered by the vigilance committee's forensics squad.

All True Facts.

[FISHY1118]

He was the man seen by Smith, Fanny, and Eagle, handing out packets of crisps on Berner street.

Liz Stride offered some of her packet to the BS man, but he hated chicken flavor, so in disgust he turned her around and threw her down on the footway. The crisps went everywhere, and were later discovered by the vigilance committee's forensics squad.

All True Facts.

Jolly Good , i can eliminate parcelman then as Jack the ripper .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Jolly Good , i can eliminate parcelman then as Jack the ripper .

Stop the press

[FISHY1118]

Stop the press

Well it was easy, im suprized you hadnt worked it out, Pipeman and Parcelman are the same person .

[GBinOz]

Im not getting into A debate whether Baxters time had a ten minute margin or not, he gave he time of death which fits perfectly with time stride was most probably killed
Regards Fishy

Hi Fishy,

You quoted this in a previous post:
Dr Blackwell arrived at the Murder scene and consulted his watch at 1.16 am
[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - Dr Blackwell From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived.

Can you not see that Blackwell did not give a TOD, he gave a ten minute range (or margin) for the TOD?

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

You quoted this in a previous post:
Dr Blackwell arrived at the Murder scene and consulted his watch at 1.16 am
[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - Dr Blackwell From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived.

Can you not see that Blackwell did not give a TOD, he gave a ten minute range (or margin) for the TOD?

Cheers, George

So from 12.56am back to 12.46 am ,what time did Schwartz testify he witnessed the assault? 12.45. Not a lot of time for someone other than bs man to kill stride

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well it was easy, im suprized you hadnt worked it out, Pipeman and Parcelman are the same person .

I can just see him running along, with a pipe or something in one hand, and the parcel in the other. Sounds totally realistic.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So from 12.56am back to 12.46 am ,what time did Schwartz testify he witnessed the assault? 12.45. Not a lot of time for someone other than bs man to kill stride

Not a lot of time? Yet the Schwartz incident supposedly has four people arrive on the street, and disappear from it so fast that no one sees or hears anything of their presence. So I would of thought the remaining time would be seen as huge in comparison, and it only requires the appearance of one more man.

There seems to me to be some friction between the simultaneous belief in the fleeting incident, and the unlikely occurrence of another man 'coming along', in the remaining minutes before the discovery.

[FISHY1118]

Not a lot of time? Yet the Schwartz incident supposedly has four people arrive on the street, and disappear from it so fast that no one sees or hears anything of their presence. So I would of thought the remaining time would be seen as huge in comparison, and it only requires the appearance of one more man.

There seems to me to be some friction between the simultaneous belief in the fleeting incident, and the unlikely occurrence of another man 'coming along', in the remaining minutes before the discovery.

At the precise moment of the attact at 12.45 only Schwartz , BSman and Pipeman stride were involved, it quit possible was over in a matter of moments , unless you have another eyewitness account of someone else who saw what Schwartz saw at the same time ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

P.S. for Andrew - if Goldstein's north and south sighting were at the same time they must have been the same event. "A second later he had vanished round the corner leading to Commercial Road.". Which corner might that have been?

Cheers, George

Goldstein admitted to the south passing, and presumably gave a time of about 1am. Yet the south sighting is not tied to a particular time, even a rough one. It is just somewhere within the 12:30-1am half hour. The north sighting, in contrast, is vaguely specific ...

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

Wess reinforced the 'about 1am' time, in the MA report. He seems to have claimed that Goldstein was seen by Mortimer "walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder". Which is misleading. Mortimer's public comments do not support Wess's contention that the to-the-south trip occurred when he and Goldstein claimed it did. So really, Wess's comments regarding Goldstein were disingenuous. He has been allowed to get way with them, however.

Regarding the corner, that would be the corner that one would expect a man to reach, having been seen walking to the north, just prior to the discovery.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

At the precise moment of the attact at 12.45 only Schwartz , BSman and Pipeman stride were involved, it quit possible was over in a matter of moments , unless you have another eyewitness account of someone else who saw what Schwartz saw at the same time ?

You miss my point. No surprises there, but let me spell it out for you ...

If people have no trouble in believing that 4 people could arrive on Berner street, participate in quarrelling, assaulting, shouting, and chasing, and then leave in some sense, without anyone noticing a thing, all because it "was over in a matter of moments", then they should not have any trouble in supposing that a single man could subsequently arrive on the scene, in a matter of minutes.

The friction that exists between what is believed to have occurred, and what is believed to be unlikely to have occurred, suggests that common sense is being switched to 'off', to accommodate He Who Shall Not Be Questioned, and then switched back to 'on', to explain what does and does not happen afterward.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

This is a portion of Donald Swanson's October 19 report.

"From enquiries made it was found that at:-

12.35 a.m. 30th P.C. 452H Smith saw a man and woman the latter with a red rose talking in Berner Street, this P.C. on seeing the body identified it as being that of the woman whom he had seen & he thus describes the man as age about 28. ht. 5ft. 7in: comp. dark, small dark moustache, dress black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, white collar & tie.

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic – Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road “Lipski” & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran as far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far. [Here there is a marginal note. – “The use of ‘Lipski’ increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew”.] Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other. Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen & he thus describes the first man who threw the woman down:- age about 30 ht. 5 ft. 5in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands. second man age 35 ht. 5ft. 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before. [Here there is a marginal note. – “Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself in case any questions might be asked."]

Note the timeline.

Note also the absence of James Brown, who also claimed to have seen Stride at about 12:45. Why no mention of him, and his description of the man he witnessed with a woman he believed to be the deceased?

Is it possible the police were a bit miffed about their 'star' witness being excluded from the inquest? Surely they'd have been above that sort of pettiness. In that case, what is the explanation for Swanson referring to a non-inquest witness at length, and making no mention of a 'competing' witness, who did testify at the inquest?

Baxter's decision not to call Schwartz, does not seem to have had any negative consequences, whereas the polices' continuing faith in Schwartz, ultimately led to the futile search for a man named Lipski.