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A closer look at Leon Goldstein

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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi RD,

    The Evening News of 1 Oct details three interviews with women who were standing in their doorway that night. Two of those interviews are obviously with Fanny Mortimer, but the third was with the wife of a well-to-do artisan (FM was married to a Car man). Here is an extract:

    " I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

    "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

    "Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

    "No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."


    IMO this was a possible report of Goldstein leaving the murder site to establish an alibi at the Spectacle Cafe, but in that view I form a small minority of one. this has been the subject of previous discussion, and it has been pointed out to me that, while Berner St sloped noticeable from north to south, up and down actually mean the same thing. My point is, that there is no need for your speculation about an about-face, as someone was seen headed north that night, carrying a black bag.

    Cheers, George
    So could this woman have seen Goldstein walk away from the murder site and then Fanny Mortimer spots the same man walking back after he had turned around to head back past the club?
    A great diversionary tactic would incorporate the killer making sure he's seen walking from a particular spot TOWARDS a kill site.

    The question is...what address did the woman in the article above live at? She refers to him coming from the club, so that means her address must have been south of Faircloth Street, because if he came from the club, he could have only have walked south for the witness to have specified that she thought he may have come from the club.


    ​​​​​​It's not the direction the man walks that counts the most, it's the location of the witness in relation to the suspect that matters more.

    RD
    "Great minds, don't think alike"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

      So could this woman have seen Goldstein walk away from the murder site and then Fanny Mortimer spots the same man walking back after he had turned around to head back past the club?
      A great diversionary tactic would incorporate the killer making sure he's seen walking from a particular spot TOWARDS a kill site.

      The question is...what address did the woman in the article above live at? She refers to him coming from the club, so that means her address must have been south of Faircloth Street, because if he came from the club, he could have only have walked south for the witness to have specified that she thought he may have come from the club.


      ​​​​​​It's not the direction the man walks that counts the most, it's the location of the witness in relation to the suspect that matters more.

      RD
      Hi RD,

      A round trip from the Club to the Spectacle Cafe is about 12 minutes. So from a murder around 12:45, with a few minutes at the Spectacle to establish his presence, this derives to a return trip around one o'clock when he was seen by FM walking down Berner St.

      Mrs Artisan refers to the man with the black bag as proceeding Up Berner St, possibly coming from the Club. This would place her observation point north of the Club, in the vicinity of where she was seen chatting with neighbours.

      Cheers, George
      It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

        With all due respect, my dear chap, I don't quite see her as dressed for cleaning work that night. Not with that outfit, humble though it was, and the care she'd taken over it. Whatever had enticed her to literally within 175m of Lechmere's mother's house was different altogether...

        Bests,

        Mark D.
        Unless she did her socialising before doing a shift, I agree, she was not dressed to go cleaning. Had she been a cleaner at the club, the people there did an excellent job of hiding the fact.
        Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          IMO this was a possible report of Goldstein leaving the murder site to establish an alibi at the Spectacle Cafe, but in that view I form a small minority of one.
          However, it is an interesting theory, when one considers that the "coffee-house" was probably a Jewish Entertainment Working Men’s Club.
          Lately, trying to find information about some of the people who were at the club that night, I've been reading the article in Ripperologist 129 by Lynn Cates (The Berner Street Club), Murder and Murder: The Fruits of Today’s Society in Ripperologist 152, the casebook thread 'Arbeter Fraint's Take' and I have reread the chapter
          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

            So could this woman have seen Goldstein walk away from the murder site and then Fanny Mortimer spots the same man walking back after he had turned around to head back past the club?
            A great diversionary tactic would incorporate the killer making sure he's seen walking from a particular spot TOWARDS a kill site.
            If the man had a done a U-turn at the top of Berner St, why wouldn't Fanny have seen him walk up the street, before she sees him walking down it? The round-trip would take about a minute.

            ​The question is...what address did the woman in the article above live at? She refers to him coming from the club, so that means her address must have been south of Faircloth Street, because if he came from the club, he could have only have walked south for the witness to have specified that she thought he may have come from the club.
            The woman in that article refers to a man going up Berner St, that is, north toward Commercial Rd. The man's path suggested to her that he might have come from the club. That means the woman was to the north of the club.
            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

              A round trip from the Club to the Spectacle Cafe is about 12 minutes. So from a murder around 12:45, with a few minutes at the Spectacle to establish his presence, this derives to a return trip around one o'clock when he was seen by FM walking down Berner St.

              Mrs Artisan refers to the man with the black bag as proceeding Up Berner St, possibly coming from the Club. This would place her observation point north of the Club, in the vicinity of where she was seen chatting with neighbours.​
              The problem with this theory, of course, is that it requires there to have been two Fanny Mortimer's, so to speak.
              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                If the man had a done a U-turn at the top of Berner St, why wouldn't Fanny have seen him walk up the street, before she sees him walking down it? The round-trip would take about a minute.



                The woman in that article refers to a man going up Berner St, that is, north toward Commercial Rd. The man's path suggested to her that he might have come from the club. That means the woman was to the north of the club.

                Then her location relative to the man seen walking up Berner Street, surely proves that the same man walked up and then back down Berner Street?

                Do we have an approximate time for the man seen walking UP Berner Street?

                If the man is seen walking UP Berner Street BEFORE Mortimer sees the man walking DOWN Berner Street towards the club, then surely the scenario whereby he does a U-Turn fits into the idea of Goldstein having been the killer?

                Goldstein was seen walking hurriedly down Berner Street, but why the rush?

                Was it the weather that made him walk fast?

                Or was he intending to be spotted walking SOUTH towards the club and then walk past the murder site, to defer blame onto another killer?

                It might sound odd for a killer to walk back past a murder site, but it's also a very clever way of making it look like he had come from the North.

                Is there any reason why the witness who claims to have seen a man walking UP from the location of the club wasn't taken more seriously?


                It seems to me far more likely that the SAME MAN was seen walking UP and then DOWN Berner Street. Unusual behavior considering a woman had her throat cut just yards away.


                If find it baffling how we talk about Schwartz, and his theatrical story of BS Man and Pipeman, and the alleged assault on Stride...when we have a more likely scenario of the man seen with the black bag having been the killer.

                What's interesting is that nobody claims to have seen Schwartz, which is even more bizarre considering the amount of focus that is put into his story.


                Sometimes, the most simplest and obvious answer is the correct one.

                The man with the black bag leaves the club and sees Stride; and for reasons known only to him, he cuts her throat and then walks north UP Berner Street. But he is then spotted by a witness who seems to have been the only person to have seen him walk UP from the club. He then goes to the coffee shop to create an alibi, but also perhaps to ask for help. He is then advised to walk back down Berner Street because if he is seen, he won't be considered as the killer, because what killer would walk back past the murder site? He then glimpses up at the club to see if there's any activity, ergo, whether Stride has been found, and then walks into Faircloth Street and around the corner.
                The next day he speaks to Wess and confesses, and Wess tells him that he will sort it out, but Goldstein will still need to go to the police because he was spotted. He then tells Goldstein that they will get one of their comrades to go to the police (Schwartz - not the man's real name) to spin a story about an assault on the woman having taken place at 12.45am and that there were a couple of other men (BS Man and Pipeman) who were present and that BS Man was shouting racial slurs. This would then convince the police that Stride's killer was a non-Jew and thus draw focus away from the killer having come from the club.

                The question then is, who else was in on it?

                Diemschultz? Eagle?

                This scenario makes Goldstein the killer and implies that Stride was not murdered by the Ripper.

                But then the club goes further and eluding to their connection with the WVC, they then bring in Le Grand, who helps to intimidate a witness closest to the murder site in Packer. He is told to tell the police that he saw a man with Stride for over half an hour and who bought grapes from him. This is a virtual replication of the witness testimony of a fruit seller in the Coram Street murder on Christmas day 1872.

                The anti-Jewish sentiment is then pedaled through the press and the WVC gain more publicity that perpetuates the Ripper story to keep them in business.

                Stride's murder is then used as a catalyst to push through the agenda of the WVC and the anti-Jewish rhetoric.

                When the real ripper kills Eddowes, he takes a piece of apron and deliberately places it under the Goulston St graffiti, that had been written previously by another.

                In reality, the Ripper wasn't a Jew, and the club's attempt to get publicity by their association by proxy to the murder of Stride worked in a way they never expected; Stride then becomes incorrectly included in the Ripper victim list. Her inclusion helps the club and the WVC.


                But wait... something just doesn't feel right with all of this...

                Of course, the above hypothesis eludes to Stride having been deliberately targeted and murdered for the benefit of the club's publicity and future links to the Ripper murders.

                That's fine but something just doesn't sit right with the Goldstein angle; why would he kill her?


                So here's my amended hypothesis...


                Here goes...



                There is also another possibility; that Stride was the victim of a professional targeted kill.

                Joseph Lave was essentially seeking temporary refuge at the club, having come from Russia via the States.

                But what if he was bought in for a specific reason... as a hired killer?

                Could the club have planned the entire murder of Stride, in a bid to put the club firmly into the public spotlight and highlight its cause? What better way to gain publicity than to have your club placed firmly in the spotlight of the Ripper murders?

                Stride is lured to the club by the man she is spotted with outside the Bricklayers arms...and once PC Smith has passed the site, she is then told to wait outside while her male companion goes into the club; he won't be long.

                That then gives the signal for Lave to go out for some fresh air. He sees Stride and engages with her by offering her a cachou, and as she takes the bag he grabs her and cuts her throat.

                Goldstein is then used as a physical decoy to be intentionally spotted walking Up and Down Berner Street and a brief appearance at the coffee house.

                In this scenario, the entire murder is staged.

                But the mistake they made was the actual kill itself; a solitary clean cut with the victim placed down in silence...ergo, a professional kill.


                Lave was the odd one out of all those present at the time... bought in to kill Stride outside their club and put the club into the limelight by association with the Ripper case.

                After all, there's no such thing as bad publicity...



                RD
                "Great minds, don't think alike"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post


                  Then her location relative to the man seen walking up Berner Street, surely proves that the same man walked up and then back down Berner Street?
                  Why that order? Consider the quotes.

                  1st report: I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' club close by.

                  2nd report: I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

                  1st report quotes Mrs Mortimer.
                  2nd report: Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

                  Do you think both reports refer to Fanny?
                  So, in what order did the man walk the street - up and down, or down and up?

                  1st report: It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

                  2nd report: I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

                  The phrase "just before I turned in" is fairly clear, but how previously did the man walk very fast down the street?

                  1st report: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half past twelve and one o'clock this (Saturday) morning, and I did not notice anything unusual.

                  So, a lot of that half hour at her door, but what about before that time? There is nothing to say she was not at her door at all, when the club event was in full swing. Perhaps 'previously' dates from back then.​

                  Do we have an approximate time for the man seen walking UP Berner Street?
                  We only have what is in the Evening News report. If you assume both reports to be Fanny, this becomes a matter of considering timelines.

                  If the man is seen walking UP Berner Street BEFORE Mortimer sees the man walking DOWN Berner Street towards the club, then surely the scenario whereby he does a U-Turn fits into the idea of Goldstein having been the killer?
                  In #246, you said ...

                  Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                  I would consider Schwartz is more likely to have been the man who cut Stride's throat, not necessarily the Ripper but the man who killed Stride.

                  Killer's often enjoy embedding themselves into a murder investigation by placing themselves at the scene and portraying themselves as a key witness or saviour.

                  Until the day that Schwartz can be definitively identified post-Stride murder, then IMO he remains the most likely individual to have murdered Stride.


                  Goldstein was seen walking hurriedly down Berner Street, but why the rush?

                  Was it the weather that made him walk fast?
                  I don't know why he was walking very fast. Being a traveller, perhaps he was in the habit of walking fast. A time is money, sort of attitude. Had it been raining, would Fanny have remained at her door?

                  Or was he intending to be spotted walking SOUTH towards the club and then walk past the murder site, to defer blame onto another killer?

                  It might sound odd for a killer to walk back past a murder site, but it's also a very clever way of making it look like he had come from the North.
                  Just remember that Fanny is quoted as saying the man came from Commercial Road. Was she aware of the man doing a U-turn?

                  Is there any reason why the witness who claims to have seen a man walking UP from the location of the club wasn't taken more seriously?
                  Other than by Walter Dew. I don't know the reason, so can only suggest that Mortimer's police statement did not include this claim.

                  It seems to me far more likely that the SAME MAN was seen walking UP and then DOWN Berner Street. Unusual behavior considering a woman had her throat cut just yards away.
                  In both instances the man carries a black bag, so it certainly seems likely it was the same man.

                  If find it baffling how we talk about Schwartz, and his theatrical story of BS Man and Pipeman, and the alleged assault on Stride...when we have a more likely scenario of the man seen with the black bag having been the killer.

                  What's interesting is that nobody claims to have seen Schwartz, which is even more bizarre considering the amount of focus that is put into his story.


                  Sometimes, the most simplest and obvious answer is the correct one.

                  The man with the black bag leaves the club and sees Stride; and for reasons known only to him, he cuts her throat and then walks north UP Berner Street. But he is then spotted by a witness who seems to have been the only person to have seen him walk UP from the club. He then goes to the coffee shop to create an alibi, but also perhaps to ask for help. He is then advised to walk back down Berner Street because if he is seen, he won't be considered as the killer, because what killer would walk back past the murder site? He then glimpses up at the club to see if there's any activity, ergo, whether Stride has been found, and then walks into Faircloth Street and around the corner.
                  What happens if he isn't seen?

                  The next day he speaks to Wess and confesses, and Wess tells him that he will sort it out, but Goldstein will still need to go to the police because he was spotted. He then tells Goldstein that they will get one of their comrades to go to the police (Schwartz - not the man's real name) to spin a story about an assault on the woman having taken place at 12.45am and that there were a couple of other men (BS Man and Pipeman) who were present and that BS Man was shouting racial slurs. This would then convince the police that Stride's killer was a non-Jew and thus draw focus away from the killer having come from the club.
                  The hypothetical comrade who goes to the police is taking a big risk. For what reward? If Goldstein wants help, I think the proviso would be that he goes to the police himself, wearing his theatrical hat.
                  Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                    With all due respect, my dear chap, I don't quite see her as dressed for cleaning work that night. Not with that outfit, humble though it was, and the care she'd taken over it. Whatever had enticed her to literally within 175m of Lechmere's mother's house was different altogether...

                    Bests,

                    Mark D.
                    Hi Mark,

                    Consider the circumstantial evidence before judging the wardrobe choice. I think its safe to assume that we have no reason to suspect she is a frequenter there...although Parcel Man does insinuate some possibility she may have known someone who was. But on the whole, nothing compelling to suggest she works there regularly. So, she is someone who cleans for Jewish families in the area and has done so for the weeks leading up to this night. The club had originally scheduled William Morris to speak that night, someone perhaps someone polarizing among the more radical elements within the local Socialist Jewish communities. Its why he decided not to appear, and there were threats about this event that were reported. It was anticipated to be, and proven to be, a well attended event nonetheless. The hall would need a lot of cleaning after 200 or so men messed it up for a few hours, and Mrs D has I believe 1 woman there to help her, and 2 floors of mess to contend with. If Liz had been recommended as a cleaner by one of the Jewish members as some additional help for this larger than average clean up, she would have likely tried to make a good impression so as to represent her benefactor properly and perhaps to set herself up for more work.

                    She is wearing her "good evening wear", as reported by a fellow lodger, she feels compelled to brush lint from her skirt. She doesnt go get drunk before she shows up there, even though she left her lodgings hours earlier. She acquires a flower arrangement, and some mints, perhaps paid for with the money she was paid for cleaning rooms that afternoon. Nicely dressed and with proper accoutrements.

                    I believe that there are only 2 reasonable explanations for her being there, and being dressed better than she would have to service drunk dock workers or warehouse men. She is either trying to be presentable for a work opportunity, or she is there to meet someone. In either case, her telling her lodgemates that she didnt know when she would return would be an indication that likely was not coming back there that night.
                    Michael Richards

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                      The problem with this theory, of course, is that it requires there to have been two Fanny Mortimer's, so to speak.
                      Door stoop snooping was common practice. Letchford stated that his sister was thus engaged, and then there is, of course, Marshall. The actual problem is that no other door stoop snoopers reported seeing anyone.
                      It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                        I believe that there are only 2 reasonable explanations for her being there, and being dressed better than she would have to service drunk dock workers or warehouse men. She is either trying to be presentable for a work opportunity, or she is there to meet someone. In either case, her telling her lodgemates that she didnt know when she would return would be an indication that likely was not coming back there that night.
                        Hi Michael,

                        Alternatively, she could have been waiting for someone, with whom she had spent the evening, to return from the loo or the Club premises.

                        Cheers, George
                        It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Door stoop snooping was common practice. Letchford stated that his sister was thus engaged, and then there is, of course, Marshall. The actual problem is that no other door stoop snoopers reported seeing anyone.
                          George,
                          I probably should have used the word 'issue' rather than 'problem' - it's not inconceivable that another woman nearby to Fanny stood at her doorstep and hurried to club as Fanny did, on being alerted to the murder. However, the parallels between this woman and Fanny have to weighed-up against Fanny owning a few decent clothes and wanting to appear in her "Sunday best" that day.
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                            Hi Michael,

                            Alternatively, she could have been waiting for someone, with whom she had spent the evening, to return from the loo or the Club premises.

                            Cheers, George
                            I struggle with the notion of a man leaving a woman at the gates while he does business in the club, even more than I do with the notion of people casually walking into the yard from the street, to use the loos. I can imagine the club people wanting a man to leave his dog at the gates, while he attends to business inside, but not his woman - especially at night. Was the club so un-progressive that they required men to leave their women, not just outside the side door, but outside the yard, when they visited the club?
                            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • This thread has highlighted something rather important and which we all seem to agree on one way or another; that Stride was there in the yard because of someone in the club.
                              Whether she was waiting for someone in the club, or for someone to come BACK out of the club, the point is that she was there because of a man connected to the club.
                              When you combine the eye witness evidence of events leading up to her death, the following would seem to fit...

                              She had been seen publicly embracing a man outside the Bricklayers Arms
                              ​​
                              She was dressed to impress - relative to her regular attire that would be worn for soliciting.

                              She was heard telling someone "No, not tonight" which would imply she wasn't there to pick up business.

                              When she left the boarding house she spoke like a woman who wasn't planning to go out and solicit that night.

                              And so why was she there in the yard?

                              If she wasn't there to solicit, then what other reason would draw her to the club?

                              Interestingly, the man who she told "No, not tonight" was undoubtedly looking for business...but if she wasn't dressed like an unfortunate that night, then how and why did the man try it on with her?

                              It eludes to the idea that the man who spoke to her already knew her, or knew she was a prostitute at the very least.

                              Is there a scenario whereby she hasn't disclosed that she was a prostitute and the man who she has been kissing didn't know, but later found out that by someone telling him, and that made him angry enough to kill her?

                              Another key point is that IF her killer was anyone associated with the club, then it's unlikely that she was a Ripper victim. That is unless you believe the Ripper was a Jew based at the club.

                              For Stride to have been a Ripper victim, he would have simply been walking down Berner Street, seen her waiting by the gate, enticed her back and then cut her throat before leaving.

                              But again, the same problem applies....

                              If Stride wasn't dressed to solicit, and she had openly told a man "No, not tonight," then how would the Ripper know she was a prostitute? In other words, why would he attack her?

                              It would then suggest that IF the Ripper killed her; that he already knew her, or knew she was a prostitute despite her not touting for business.

                              The man she rejected and told "no, not tonight" must have known she was already a prostitute and so it would seem that IF she was a Ripper victim, that the man who she rejected is most likely her killer, ergo, he was the Ripper.

                              When we look at all the evidence available to us, it would seem more likely that Stride had he throat cut by someone associated with the club, or the Ripper in passing who knew she was a prostitute despite her attempts to conceal the fact that night.


                              RD
                              "Great minds, don't think alike"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                                Hi Michael,

                                Alternatively, she could have been waiting for someone, with whom she had spent the evening, to return from the loo or the Club premises.

                                Cheers, George
                                We have sightings of her earlier in the evening but not ones that have her with the same man. But I would think that I would be covered under "meet someone", albeit loose coverage, because if she is waiting for someone who left her company, its not really "meet" is it? Re-meet?

                                I believe that discovering a sound reason for her being there and being dressed as she was might lead to some other good questions and directions. And I dont believe that her general decorum....nicely dressed, flower arrangement, sober, breath fresheners....were commonly seen among the women walking the late night streets.

                                I admit to having suspicions here about someone in particular based on little more than some circumstantial tidbits, but in general, Ill stick with Work or Date.
                                Michael Richards

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