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A closer look at Leon Goldstein

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  • #76
    Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

    It's just your opinion that Leon Goldstein should be on the suspect list. If the Ripper was indeed known to Scotland Yard wouldnt they announce who it was? Leon Goldstein is in my opinion not worth a closer look.
    Goldstein was eliminated at the time by the Police. His direction of travel was not a concern to them. His alibi we should assume was checked at the shop where he had been. He may have been well known. It's a nonsense to even suggest him. This was an actual person and sometimes we forget that even after the passage of time throwing accusations around is not right.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

      Goldstein was eliminated at the time by the Police. His direction of travel was not a concern to them. His alibi we should assume was checked at the shop where he had been. He may have been well known. It's a nonsense to even suggest him. This was an actual person and sometimes we forget that even after the passage of time throwing accusations around is not right.
      I couldn't agree more with you Sunny Delight.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

        I couldn't agree more with you Sunny Delight.
        My real name is Pat, John. Yes it is to be borne in mind by us all that these were a series of very brutal murders and I wouldn't like my name bandied about even in 130 years time over a murder today. For me the interesting thing about Goldstein is he co-orborates Mrs. Mortimer. She saw him and was at her door when she said she was. By all intents and purposes it seems likely the measured steps she heard pass her door, which she took for a Policeman, was actually the murderer. Nothing else would make sense in regards timing.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

          It is widely accepted that Goldstein came forward to identify himself as the man seen at 1am or thereabouts by Mrs Mortimer. The Police then eliminated him from their enquiries. Dew was writing 50 years after the event. Most likely from what he had compiled the man described by Mortimer seemed a certain fit. He didn't have access to the Police files we have now. It's that simple.
          It's that simple, if your assumptions are correct. How do you know what sources of information, Dew had available to him?
          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

            Goldstein was eliminated at the time by the Police. His direction of travel was not a concern to them. His alibi we should assume was checked at the shop where he had been. He may have been well known. It's a nonsense to even suggest him.
            'Blank' was eliminated at the time by the Police. It's a nonsense to even suggest him.

            This was an actual person and sometimes we forget that even after the passage of time throwing accusations around is not right.
            Why is it only in regards to Goldstein, that you say this? Why not every other suspect, and especially those who cannot be placed at a single crime scene?
            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

              My real name is Pat, John. Yes it is to be borne in mind by us all that these were a series of very brutal murders and I wouldn't like my name bandied about even in 130 years time over a murder today. For me the interesting thing about Goldstein is he co-orborates Mrs. Mortimer. She saw him and was at her door when she said she was. By all intents and purposes it seems likely the measured steps she heard pass her door, which she took for a Policeman, was actually the murderer. Nothing else would make sense in regards timing.
              According to Swanson's report, Goldstein was seen at about 1am. Can you show how Goldstein corroborates Mrs Mortimer, for this time?

              If nothing else makes sense in regards to the timing of the footsteps, which were supposedly heard just before 12:45, can you give us any idea as to what Morris Eagle must have seen, when returning to the club at about 12:40?
              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

                For me the interesting thing about Goldstein is he co-orborates Mrs. Mortimer. She saw him and was at her door when she said she was. By all intents and purposes it seems likely the measured steps she heard pass her door, which she took for a Policeman, was actually the murderer. Nothing else would make sense in regards timing.
                Hi Sunny,

                Are you aware that Walter Dew was a detective in H-Division and was part of the team investigating the Jack the Ripper murders, and that most of the files we have today are but a remnant of the original files which have mostly been destroyed or lost?

                Suppose that you are correct and the footsteps that were heard were in fact those of the murderer, and, suppose for the sake of argument, the murderer was Goldstein. The time gap between the hearing of those footsteps and Goldstein being seen walking down Berner St is about 15 minutes. This is enough time for Goldstein to walk to the Spectacle, establish a presence in the shop, particularly if he were known there, and return to Berner St. There was a note in the margin of the Leman St police report that implied that someone suspected that Goldstein was trying to establish an alibi. The police investigation could only conclude that Goldstein was at the Spectacle, not where he was before, although there was a press report placing him him in Berner St headed north which was apparently ignored. They knew from his statement that he was in Berner St shortly after. Suspicions do not constitute proof to mount any case against him. As with most persons of interest, this scenario is pure speculation, but unlike most persons of interest, he can be placed in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder and it is that circumstance that makes it far from nonsense to even suggest him.

                Cheers, George
                It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  It's that simple, if your assumptions are correct. How do you know what sources of information, Dew had available to him?
                  Considering the errors in his memoir(which was based more on catching Crippen) I think it is fair to say Dew did not have access to the files we have today.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                    According to Swanson's report, Goldstein was seen at about 1am. Can you show how Goldstein corroborates Mrs Mortimer, for this time?

                    If nothing else makes sense in regards to the timing of the footsteps, which were supposedly heard just before 12:45, can you give us any idea as to what Morris Eagle must have seen, when returning to the club at about 12:40?
                    Swanson's report is based on the fact Mrs. Mortimer saw a man and Goldstein identified himself as that person?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                      'Blank' was eliminated at the time by the Police. It's a nonsense to even suggest him.



                      Why is it only in regards to Goldstein, that you say this? Why not every other suspect, and especially those who cannot be placed at a single crime scene?
                      It is in regards everyone. I dont think names should be bandied about, particularly names the Police at the time eliminated as simply a passer by.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                        Hi Sunny,

                        Are you aware that Walter Dew was a detective in H-Division and was part of the team investigating the Jack the Ripper murders, and that most of the files we have today are but a remnant of the original files which have mostly been destroyed or lost?

                        Suppose that you are correct and the footsteps that were heard were in fact those of the murderer, and, suppose for the sake of argument, the murderer was Goldstein. The time gap between the hearing of those footsteps and Goldstein being seen walking down Berner St is about 15 minutes. This is enough time for Goldstein to walk to the Spectacle, establish a presence in the shop, particularly if he were known there, and return to Berner St. There was a note in the margin of the Leman St police report that implied that someone suspected that Goldstein was trying to establish an alibi. The police investigation could only conclude that Goldstein was at the Spectacle, not where he was before, although there was a press report placing him him in Berner St headed north which was apparently ignored. They knew from his statement that he was in Berner St shortly after. Suspicions do not constitute proof to mount any case against him. As with most persons of interest, this scenario is pure speculation, but unlike most persons of interest, he can be placed in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder and it is that circumstance that makes it far from nonsense to even suggest him.

                        Cheers, George
                        So you are suggesting Goldstein may have been in Berner Street and killed Stride. He then leaves heard by Mrs. Mortimer to go to a shop so he could establish an alibi. He stays for about a minute before leaving again to re-enter Berner Street and travel home. I think it may be more simple that Goldstein was at the coffee shop and was walking home, seen by Fanny Mortimer and then identified himself the next day to Police after becoming aware he had been mentioned in the papers. In actual fact Goldstein was probably an upstanding citizen- he came forward so he could be eliminated and prevent the Police chasing a dead end.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

                          So you are suggesting Goldstein may have been in Berner Street and killed Stride. He then leaves heard by Mrs. Mortimer to go to a shop so he could establish an alibi. He stays for about a minute before leaving again to re-enter Berner Street and travel home. I think it may be more simple that Goldstein was at the coffee shop and was walking home, seen by Fanny Mortimer and then identified himself the next day to Police after becoming aware he had been mentioned in the papers. In actual fact Goldstein was probably an upstanding citizen- he came forward so he could be eliminated and prevent the Police chasing a dead end.
                          Hi Sunny,

                          Goldstein said his black bag contained tobacco tins. He could have spent 3-4 minutes at the Spectacle collecting said tins and still had time for the return trip to and from Berner St. Goldstein could have been an upstanding citizen - many serial killers are perceived as such, but the police marginal note indicates that they were not sure that this was the case, implying he may have been trying to prevent further questions being asked.

                          To be clear, I am not advocating Goldstein as a suspect, just saying he cannot be dismissed as a "nonsense" suggestion. John Wheat's definition of a "pointless suspect" to my mind is someone who cannot even be established as being in the country at the time of the murders. Clearly Goldstein does not fall into this category, and can be established as being in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder. Think of your favoured suspect and apply this test to him.

                          Cheers, George
                          It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                          All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                            Hi Sunny,

                            Goldstein said his black bag contained tobacco tins. He could have spent 3-4 minutes at the Spectacle collecting said tins and still had time for the return trip to and from Berner St. Goldstein could have been an upstanding citizen - many serial killers are perceived as such, but the police marginal note indicates that they were not sure that this was the case, implying he may have been trying to prevent further questions being asked.

                            To be clear, I am not advocating Goldstein as a suspect, just saying he cannot be dismissed as a "nonsense" suggestion. John Wheat's definition of a "pointless suspect" to my mind is someone who cannot even be established as being in the country at the time of the murders. Clearly Goldstein does not fall into this category, and can be established as being in the immediate vicinity at the time of the murder. Think of your favoured suspect and apply this test to him.

                            Cheers, George

                            He could but it would be very unlikely. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. He was at a coffee shop collecting tobacco tins and walks home down Berner Street. Mortimer sees him. That is pretty much that. Alibi can be easily checked. Goldstein is much like Charles Cross to me and it takes mental gymnastics to try and explain how they are plausible as suspects. Personally I don't have any suspects but probably out of fashion nowadays but I believe George Hutchinson and see AK man as our most likely suspect as JTR.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

                              Considering the errors in his memoir(which was based more on catching Crippen) I think it is fair to say Dew did not have access to the files we have today.
                              The important question seems to me to be; did Dew know that Goldstein had gone to the police? That is obviously a crucial detail. If Dew knew details such as the rain that night, when writing nearly 50 years later, could he really have been ignorant of Goldstein coming forward? If he did know, then how do you suppose he came to the conclusion that black bag man was JtR?
                              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

                                Swanson's report is based on the fact Mrs. Mortimer saw a man and Goldstein identified himself as that person?
                                Correct. Keep going ...
                                Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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