The broken window

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil,

Is it really hard to believe that after witnessing the horror that they did that rational thought was impaired?

c.d.

Hello c.d.,

Which affected every single person there? Policemen, doctors. .professionals all? Of all ranks?
I suggest that someone kept their senses.



Phil

[packers stem]

Hello Packers

According to Elizabeth Prater, her neighbour.

C4

Hi C4
Do you not suspect she was told that by Kelly?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil

As they had never come across this type of murderer before, perhaps they didn't know what to think. Or what he would be capable of. Might have crossed their minds that he could be hiding, knife at the ready. Forewarned is forearmed.

Best wishes
C4

Am sorry, but I am really stretching the limit of my logical mind here. The room was 12ft x 10ft. It was tiny. Swinging a cat would have knocked it unconscious.


Phil

[curious4]

Hi C4
Do you not suspect she was told that by Kelly?

Hello Packers

Living above Kelly she may well have heard it. And what in the world would Kelly have had to gain by lying about it?

C4

[c.d.]

Hello Phil,

Do you think any one there had seen something like this before?

c.d.

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

I am thinking no such thing.

I merely offered a couple of documented facts and made an observation.

Yes, Simon, I know how you operate: hardly ever making a positive point but intimating, implying, suggesting, insinuating, even in your book where I would have expected to find the answers to all these questions.

That's why I carefully didn't say you were thinking anything. I said you appeared to be thinking it, which appearance of thought was an observation of my own.

Here's another.

There was direct telegraph communication between Commercial Street police station and Scotland Yard, yet over an hour passed before Warren was advised of the murder.

Another pointless observation. You don't know when Warren was advised of the murder, you are assuming it was 12.30 on the basis of the telegram he sent. You don't know what he was doing, or where he was, between 11.30 and 12.30 on the day of the Lord Mayor's Parade. But if an hour passed, so what? What are you saying was the advantage to anyone in delaying a communication to the Commissioner of Police about the murder by an hour. Without an answer to this question it is, like I say, another pointless observation.

[curious4]

Am sorry, but I am really stretching the limit of my logical mind here. The room was 12ft x 10ft. It was tiny. Swinging a cat would have knocked it unconscious.


Phil

Hello Phil

You are quite right. No evidence whatsoever. However even policemen can fail to think clearly when in shock over what they were seeing. I don't think a pickaxe was strictly necessary to open the door. A hammer and a chisel would have been enough. These weren't robust buildings. Or a locksmith could have been sent for.

Best wishes
C4

[DJA]

Anyone know if the house had a coal cellar?

Yet to see any evidence of one.

There were two coal merchants in Dorset Street by memory.

Very familiar with Victorian fireplaces.

Abberline is reported as saying the room was still warm when entered.

Melted kettle,burnt clothing....coal.

Coal would imply Mary had money to burn.

[David Orsam]

Landlord John McCarthy told Central News—“The Inspector [Abberline] waited a little while, and then sent a telegram to Sir Charles Warren to bring the bloodhounds, so as to trace the murderer, if possible.”

Just another pointless observation?

Very good of Inspector Abberline to tell a member of the public exactly what he was doing and the identity of the people he had sent telegrams to. And, yes, I can really see Sir Charles walking down Whitechapel, bringing the bloodhounds himself, (*sarcasm*) so Abberline clearly did not tell Sir Charles to do this.

[David Orsam]

An observation of my own.

Evidence of Inspector Abberline:

"I was on the scene of the murder by 11.30 on Friday, I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the dogs had been sent for. Dr Phillips asked me not to force the door but to test the dogs if they were coming. We remained until 1.30 when Superintendent Arnold arrived and informed me that the order as to dogs had been countermanded, and he gave directions for the door to be forced."

[David Orsam]

Evidence of George Bagster Phillips:

"...finding the door locked I looked through the lower broken pane and satisfied myself that the mutilated corpse lying on the bed was not in need of any immediate attention from me and I also came to the conclusion that there was nobody else on the bed or within view to whom I could render my professional assistance. Having ascertained that probably it was advisable that no entrance should be made into the room at that time, I remained until about 1.30 when the door was broken open..."

Another observation there.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

I'm glad you put "sarcasm" in brackets, otherwise I'd never have known.

I think the suggestion is that Abberline asked Sir Charles Warren.

Here's another pointless observation.

Sir Charles Warren wrote "Information just received (12.30) 9.11.88.”

How much more specific would you like him to have been?

Regards,

Simon

[packers stem]

Hello Packers

Living above Kelly she may well have heard it. And what in the world would Kelly have had to gain by lying about it?

C4

Hi C4
Pretending to Barnett that the key had been lost is one possibility?

[curious4]

Why????

[David Orsam]

Simon,

I'm not seeing the significance of Abberline asking Sir Charles Warren to bring the dogs, if he actually did such a thing. Eventually he found out the dogs weren't coming and an entry into Kelly's room was effected. It didn't matter if that took place at 11.30am or 1.30pm for the reasons given by Dr Phillips.

It is self-evident that Warren received the information about there having been another murder (not a telegram about dogs!) at some point before 12.30 but I fail to see what point you are trying to make here. Someone was a bit slow in getting the telegram from Commercial Street to Scotland Yard? Warren was in a meeting at the time? He was out at the Mayor's Day Parade? What's the point you want to make about the time it took to get a telegram from Miller's Court to the Commissioner? How does it make any difference to anything at all?