The broken window

[packers stem]

An observation of my own.

Evidence of Inspector Abberline:

"I was on the scene of the murder by 11.30 on Friday, I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the dogs had been sent for. Dr Phillips asked me not to force the door but to test the dogs if they were coming. We remained until 1.30 when Superintendent Arnold arrived and informed me that the order as to dogs had been countermanded, and he gave directions for the door to be forced."

Hi David
Yes,just read in the star of the 10th that Dr.Phillips decided that no one should enter the room. Bit odd though for the doctor to 'pull rank' over an inspector and make a decision for him

[Wickerman]

We do have a timeline.

It is the report of the Inquest.

Like I said, we do not have a timeline of his movements on Friday morning.

Barnett says he heard of a murder in Millers Court sometime on Friday, this must have been after 11:00 when the police took possession of the court, but he doesn't say what the time was.

Barnett went to the police station, and they took him down to Dorset St. He introduced himself and was interviewed by Abberline, who had himself arrived at 11:30, so we know Barnett was there no earlier than 11:30.

He was with police in total for four hours (one account says 2.5 hrs, but that may just have been at Millers Court).

So we can say Barnett arrived at Millers Court after 11:30, and was interviewed for 2.5 hrs. We do not know when he told the police how he could access the room via the window.
However, that detail is not relevant, the order was given that no-one can enter the room, so Abberline wouldn't attempt it until the police were given permission to access the room.
Supt. Arnold arrived at 1:30, and gave the order to break in the door.

We don't know where Abberline was at that moment, he may well have been interviewing the witnesses at the moment Arnold arrived. We don't even know if Abberline had interviewed Barnett by that time.

Therefore, there is no firm timeline of events concerning Barnett.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

You never see significance in anything which you haven't thought of yourself.

Merely an observation.

I'm off out now. See you later, no doubt.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert St Devil]

I thought Warren was reading a book to an elementary class when he got word. This sounds like it's on the doctor. If he says he looked thru the bottom pane and hes smart enough to be a doctor... Knobs right there. Brown would have used it. Does the coroner own the scene?

[c.d.]

I thought Warren was reading a book to an elementary class when he got word.

So was President George Bush on September 11th.

c.d.

[Robert St Devil]

Ohhhhh kay {coff coff}

Would the coroner own the scene, David?

[Wickerman]

Hi David
Yes,just read in the star of the 10th that Dr.Phillips decided that no one should enter the room. Bit odd though for the doctor to 'pull rank' over an inspector and make a decision for him

Hi Packers.

I think we should interpret the words of Dr Phillips as being in agreement with the opinion of Insp. Beck, that no entry should be made.

Had there been another victim inside the room who clearly was still alive, the doctor would have to confront Insp. Beck to allow him access regardless of any instruction to the contrary.
Phillips was in essence saying, I see (through the window) no cause to contest the instruction to stay outside for now.

[DJA]

Coroner was not appointed until Mary Kelly's corpse was moved to Shoreditch.

[David Orsam]

Hi David
Yes,just read in the star of the 10th that Dr.Phillips decided that no one should enter the room. Bit odd though for the doctor to 'pull rank' over an inspector and make a decision for him

Why are you seeking information from a newspaper? We have the answer from Inspector Abberline himself which I've already quoted:

"Dr Phillips asked me not to force to door but to test the dogs if they were coming'"

The doctor advised the inspector as to the best approach. He wasn't pulling rank. There is nothing 'odd' about it.

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

You never see significance in anything which you haven't thought of yourself.

Merely an observation.

A ridiculous and wholly inaccurate one which fails to disguise the fact that you have not answered any of the questions that I have addressed to you in this thread nor put forward any positive case as to what you think was going on that morning.

[DJA]

Like I said, we do not have a timeline of his movements on Friday morning.

He was with police in total for four hours (one account says 2.5 hrs, but that may just have been at Millers Court).

So we can say Barnett arrived at Millers Court after 11:30, and was interviewed for 2.5 hrs. We do not know when he told the police how he could access the room via the window.
.

OK you've moved the goal posts.

Regarding Barnett.....Abberline sent for him to identify Mary Kelly,so no earlier than 1.30 pm.
Abberline left at 4pm,hence the 2.5 hours.

Barnett's interview with Abberline was not made public.

We only have the Coroner's Inquest report.

Apart from that,regarding Barnett.....I dunno!

[Wickerman]

Inspector Beck, being the first officer to arrive at the scene shortly after 11:00 am, took charge of Millers Court.

Dr Phillips arrived about 11:15, and would naturally expect to enter the room.
Any discussion concerning entry to the room will have been between Phillips and Beck, before Abberline arrived.

On Abberline's arrival at 11:30, Phillips cautioned him not to enter, and Beck intimidated to him that the dogs had been sent for.
Naturally, Abberline will comply.

[Wickerman]

OK you've moved the goal posts.

Regarding Barnett.....Abberline sent for him to identify Mary Kelly,so no earlier than 1.30 pm.
Abberline left at 4pm,hence the 2.5 hours.

Barnett's interview with Abberline was not made public.

We only have the Coroner's Inquest report.

Apart from that,regarding Barnett.....I dunno!

I don't "move" anything, I try from various perspectives to help others understand.

Barnett says he looked at the body through the window. Not that he identified her through the window.

Barnett also tells us that he identified the body at the mortuary, which was obviously after 4:00 pm.

[Phil Carter]

Another observation for consumption.

As an axe was used to break open the ddoor in order to gain entry...

There is no evidence that the door was broken down. .In other words removed partly or totally from its hinges.
There is no evidence that only the door lock itself was attacked.
There is no evidence that a hole large enough was made in order for the policemen and doctors to step "through" into the room.

On these basis ( plural), it is totally logical to believe that only part of the door face was attacked with the axe, in order for someone to reach in and open the lock.

Which rather tends to rule out anyone believing on the off chance that any killer remained inside, on top of the Phillips evidence beforehand.

After the remains were removed, the door was "boarded up".
This indicates the covering of said hole made by the axe.
The broken window likewise, I believe.

It was noted that there were no footprints inside either, which also tells us that with the amount of blood on the floor,
said killer was very careful where he stepped inside the room.
Had we not known the window (s) was/were broken previously due to an argument, the smudge of blood could have been from the killer gaining entry that way himself. There is no evidence the smudge was fresh, is there??

Just observations.



Phil

[packers stem]

I don't "move" anything, I try from various perspectives to help others understand.

Barnett says he looked at the body through the window. Not that he identified her through the window.

Barnett also tells us that he identified the body at the mortuary, which was obviously after 4:00 pm.

Identified? Would need facial reconstruction Wickerman. Why people are blind to this is beyond me.
This is the same Barnett who told the press that Kelly had a small boy aged 6 or 7 living with her...