The People of the Abyss

[George Hutchinson]

Why not stick to sources.

Harry, that may win an award for the most hypocritical post ever made on Casebook. The thing is, most of us ARE sticking to sources - it is yourself that is denying them.

Point-scoring? Oh, please. I'm not going to stoop to that level. I have no issues with you at all but that's almost as odd as your attitude to the other posts here. I'm sure you wouldn't see it as such if I - God forbid - agreed with your opinion on this subject and disagreed with everyone else.

I lose interest in a thread when it goes round and round in circles with one saying yes and the other saying no. It happens almost all the time here. Everyone can think what they like, but an opinion is not a fact. Yes, that WOULD go for what I and most other people are saying - were it not for the FACT it is testified to again and again in period literature.

PHILIP

[The Good Michael]

From Orwell:

The Twopenny Hangover. This comes a little higher than the Embankment. At the Twopenny Hangover, the lodgers sit in a row on a bench; there is a rope in front of them, and they lean on this as though leaning over a fence. A man, humorously called the valet, cuts the rope at five in the morning. I have never been there myself, but Bozo had been there often. I asked him whether anyone could possibly sleep in such an attitude, and he said that it was more comfortable than it sounded-at any rate, better than bare floor. There are similar shelters in Paris, but the charge there is only twenty-five centimes (a halfpenny) instead of twopence."

So this is in the sitting position, leaning over a rope. There should be no question that this can be and was done. Anyone could do this. This is sleeping on a rope. No standing is necessary. Piece of cake.

Mike

[Nothing to see]

From Orwell:

The Twopenny Hangover. This comes a little higher than the Embankment. At the Twopenny Hangover, the lodgers sit in a row on a bench; there is a rope in front of them, and they lean on this as though leaning over a fence. A man, humorously called the valet, cuts the rope at five in the morning. I have never been there myself, but Bozo had been there often. I asked him whether anyone could possibly sleep in such an attitude, and he said that it was more comfortable than it sounded-at any rate, better than bare floor. There are similar shelters in Paris, but the charge there is only twenty-five centimes (a halfpenny) instead of twopence."

So this is in the sitting position, leaning over a rope. There should be no question that this can be and was done. Anyone could do this. This is sleeping on a rope. No standing is necessary. Piece of cake.
Mike

Who doesn't believe this happened? They slept leaning on ropes if they couldn't afford a 'bed'. The rope was pulled away from them around about 5am. How do you think these people lived when they couldn't even afford a bed to sleep in?

If they were up all night then they'd be hunkered down in Itchy Park during daylight. They really were the poor of the poor.

Jack wasn't choosy.

[Bulldog]

Philip,
and outside of Children of the Abyss,no accounts of the period I have read contain that method of sleeping.

Harry,

If you're fortunate enough to have a copy of Don Rumbelow's The Complete Jack the Ripper (1975) you might want to read page 14 where he describes "the twopenny rope lean-to".

Bulldog

[gary]

If anyone has read 'the autobiography of a supertramp' by WH Davies (which I heartilyrecommend anyway), he mentions the fourpenny sleep-over rope in the numerous lower class doss-houses that he was impelled to use before his literary success.

[harry]

Yes I hear what you are all saying.That other people than yourselves have said it could and has been done.I have not however heard any of you say you have seen it or has been able to do it yourselves.So none of you are speaking from experience.You have a belief in it's possibilities,that is all,I have not,and I am not Phillip,swayed by numbers.You or any other poster perform the feat in tested conditions,I will believe,and it is a test that can today,be set up.I do not ask for circular arguements,just proof.So far all we have had is claims,and claims isn't proof.
Lets look at a significant meeting that Jack london says took place.That is his meeting with an ex naval person who had won the Victoria Cross and then had it taken away from him,and explains the reason why.Well yes there was a Midshipman who won the Victoria Cross in the Crimean war.Later as a lieutenant,he deserted before facing a tribunal for an offence not specified in naval records,The forfeiture of the award was signed by Queen Victoria on 4 Septenber 1861.His name was Edward Daniel,and he died on 20 May 1868,aged31 in Hotitika hospital,South Island New Zealand,and is buried in the local cemetary there.He was the only person to have won the award,and then having to forfiet it.
However,according to Jack London,in 'Children of the abbys',London was in conversation with this sailor,at a workhouse in london,about the year 1902,some 34 years after the person had died.And the explanation given by London for the forfeiture,is totally at odds with the official version,as is the rank.So what say you Phillip.Jack London is the one telling the truth?,and I am bonkers and hypocritical for relying on official data.

[The Good Michael]

Harry,

No one saw the Whitechapel murderer commit his crimes. Not one of us (I hope) has ever done this to a woman. Yet there is strong evidence, based on contemporary accounts, that these murders were not the result of some suicide pact. Logic tells me that anyone could lean forward, from the seated position, drape one's arms over it and hang there, upper body suspended, and get some shut-eye. Logic tells me that someone murdered some women, though I didn't see it. It seems to me that you're irritated with the words Phil chose, and that you're sticking to your guns no matter what. The problem is, those guns are empty.

Cheers,

Mike

[smezenen]

So Harry you are in essence calling me a liar becouse as i stated in my post. I have slept in this very position many times, as an airborne soldier on crowded ariplanes and while seated or standing in cattle trucks as a light infantry soldier. After 22 years as an infantry soldier i pride myself on the ability to sleep anywhere and in any position. Try a little experimentation yourself, here is what you do. pack yourself a 75 pound ruck at 3:30 in the morning put it on your back and walk about 20 miles, after your little walk spend 6 hours or so in the sun practicing your markmanship skills, then get into the back of a crowded cattle truck (made for 40 passengers but usualy pack with twice that many) for the ride back to the billets see if you dont fall asleep during the ride. Now im not saying that the denziens of Whitechapel where conducting Road marches and rifle training every day or any day for that matter but the point is if you are tired enough you will sleep even standing up. as absloute proof i have included some photos for your viewing pleasure. I only have photos from the back of the infamous cattle trucks at Fort Benning in Georgia and this one wasnt at all crowded, the soldiers where actually able to sit down on this trip, they usually have to stand. As you can see it is possible to sleep in a seated position. Now let your mind take the next step and place a tight rope in front these soldiers to lean forward on or even behind them to lean back on and you get the idea of sleeping on a rope. When standing up we would lean our bodies against the metal poles you see running down the center or leaning against each other.

[George Hutchinson]

Harry, I don't really think there's anything more to say. Continue if you wish, but I don't think you've done yourself any favours. This is no longer debate; it's futility.

PHILIP

[Nothing to see]

Thanks man for your photos. Sooner you than me. The human body needs 3 things to survive. In order of importance. Sleep, water, food. Without sufficient sleep we're on the road. I've 'tried' to sleep on enough long haul flights to know that what wipes me out is not that I haven't eaten or that I haven't drunk enough water, it's that I haven't got enough sleep.

If you are tired enough, you'll sleep anywhere. God, I know I do. These hookers and many men had no option except to sleep upright. Then, you think about it. Most of the women went straight to the pubs and drank during the day and then into the night.

What a life. What a world.

[harry]

Smezenem,
I haven't called you a liar,but neither do I see persons asleep,draped over a rope,in any of your photographs.I too was in the infantry,have done all the things you say you did,except jump from a plane.I served in a special training battalion,so special that there were only two battalions in the British army.It was tough,but on no occasion did we sleep draped over a rope,though like you i slept in many an awkward position.So you have proved nothing in relation to how people in London in 1888 slept.People who it can be said were far inferior in health and fitness to yourself or myself,and of the tender sex.
Mike,
We know from official files that murders were committed in london in 1888.We do not know from official sources that people slept draped over ropes.It is nothing to do with logic either.Here we have a physicl situation that can be tested today.All you need is a rope,a bench,and vollunteers.Of the latter there should be no lack of numbers,considering the many who agree it can be done,and those who say it is an easy and even comfortable position.Why,you could even have a silk rope,if the hempen one is too rough for delicate hands.This might be a case of experiment proving superior to logic.

[smezenen]

Ok, no rope in the pictures fair enough but i have slept standing up with my upper torso draped over the metal bars you see in the photo. those would not be so different from a rope. you keep saying that nobody has first hand knowledge of it I have done it myself that is first hand knoledge now call me a liar.

[harry]

Phillip,
I do not post for favours.I thought though you might have commented on the Victoria Cross episode,which clearly shows a lack of truthfulness.Still your decision to shut up rather than put up is noted.

[Nothing to see]

OK let's both back off into our corners and get some water.

Seriously, there must be photos of these men and women asleep, hanging over lines, taken in these wretched doss houses.

That's what I'd be interested in.

[harry]

Smezenem,
I say again,I am not calling you a liar.You have only made a written claim of what you say you did,you have furnished no proof.You do not seem to appreciate the difference.