The People of the Abyss

[miss marple]

primary sources

History is made of primary sources, without primary sources, its guesswork. According to Natalie's logic, some primary sources can be dismissed because they were recorded by middle class people.Without Mayhew we would not hear their voices, these anonoymous working class people deserved to be heard.Their experience, taken together present a reality.
Mayhew is not difficult to read, its a dip in, not a cover to cover.
By Natalie's reasoning, in a hundred years time, voices of holocaust victims would be considered suspect, and the only version of truth would be of a historian in a hundred years time.
Miss Marple

[Natalie Severn]

History is made of primary sources, without primary sources, its guesswork. According to Natalie's logic, some primary sources can be dismissed because they were recorded by middle class people.Without Mayhew we would not hear their voices, these anonoymous working class people deserved to be heard.Their experience, taken together present a reality.
Mayhew is not difficult to read, its a dip in, not a cover to cover.
By Natalie's reasoning, in a hundred years time, voices of holocaust victims would be considered suspect, and the only version of truth would be of a historian in a hundred years time.
Miss Marple

Primary Sources can be the recordings of perceptions by outsiders---which those quoted were.They were outsiders by birth and privilege.Ofcourse they would have been horrified at what they saw having been brought up to expect much more by way of material needs.
Professor William Fishman is the son of an immigrant Jewish Taylor brought up by those who lived in the East End during the Victorian and Edwardian period.He is 86 years old.He is visiting professor of the University of the East End,Queen Mary"s College,Mile End and Fishman NEVER relies on just ONE primary source but several,which is how history is required to be taught in UK schools and has been since the late 1980"s.You need to constantly cross reference[otherwise we would have only one version of the Battle of Hastings----the victors whereas ,today quotes have been found by Anglo Saxon monks that give a very different version of events.
Among Fishman"s "primary sources" are "Arbeter Fraint" as well as about 60 other Articles sources and diaries
His work uses accounts of the Jewish radical socialist and Libertarian movement as well as the conventional press and other local records at Toynbee Hall which is rich beyond belief in archived materials----weekly minutes of meetings held by working men in their big hall etc etc .

And no,Miss Marple,I would never distort what happened in the Holocaust.
Cheers
Norma

[harry]

If the position was so comfortable,as someone has remarked,then perhaps the thousands of homeless sleeping rough,should be given an introduction to the method.Now I have fallen asleep draped over the back of a chair,but not for long,just a few minutes before the body adjusts and rejects the unnatural situation,as it would if a rope were used.It's an old wife's tale.It's a wonder Jack London didn't invent a giant clothes peg,to peg them in position.I'll believe it if I ever see it.

[Brenda]

Harry,
Your body was able to reject it because you had other, more comfortable, options for sleeping. If draping over a rope were your only option, it might seem like a comfortable one. Certainly it is not an old wives' tale if reports of it were written in newspapers of the time?

[Khanada]

I am reminded of all the times I fell asleep on a bouncing school bus, in a seated position, with my forehead leaned against the back of the seat in front of me... I am equally reminded of the last time I rode in a school bus, on a trip with some Amish friends -- fell asleep in the same position, and became quite the conversation piece. None of them could understand how I just nodded straight off.

[George Hutchinson]

Please tell me I'm not alone in thinking the comments of two people here are just bonkers? What are you going to be saying next - that there was no colour in the LVP because you don't see it in photographs?

This is just... weird.

PHILIP

[Limehouse]

If the position was so comfortable,as someone has remarked,then perhaps the thousands of homeless sleeping rough,should be given an introduction to the method.Now I have fallen asleep draped over the back of a chair,but not for long,just a few minutes before the body adjusts and rejects the unnatural situation,as it would if a rope were used.It's an old wife's tale.It's a wonder Jack London didn't invent a giant clothes peg,to peg them in position.I'll believe it if I ever see it.

Harry,

It's not a matter of being 'comfortable', it's a matter of relativity. If you had spent most of your life grabbing sleep in passageways, doorways, under arches and on park benches you would be used to having your sleep disturbed so a few nights spent under cover, sitting on a bench and leaning on a rope would not be so difficult to endure.

As for the contribution of authors such as London and Mayhew to the understanding of the plight of Victorian and Edwardian London's poor, whether theirs was a middle-class perspective or not, they played a crucial role in raising awareness and bringing about reform. They had the time and money to carry out their research and they were in a position to influence policies. They also played an important part in turning around the theory that poverty was something that the feckless masses brought upon themselves.

That is not to say that the work of Fishman, Sinclair and Rachel Lichenstien is not also very valuable. All of these authors have contributed hugely to the concept of 'history from below'. Mayhew and London's work was carried out to document the way the working classes lived and worked and, to some extent, illustrate that poverty was something that needed to be dealt with on a national policy-making basis. The work of Sinclair, Fishman, Lichenstien and similar authors has highlighted the close, rich cultural networks of working class life. Their focus has been not just on poverty, but on social cohesion - a celebration of working class culture and life - much in the way that E P Thompson did in The Making of the Englsih Working Class.

[Robert]

I believe that one lodger - while leaning on his rope - began "I am Jack the - " and then he dropped off to sleep.

[Natalie Severn]

Harry,

It's not a matter of being 'comfortable', it's a matter of relativity. If you had spent most of your life grabbing sleep in passageways, doorways, under arches and on park benches you would be used to having your sleep disturbed so a few nights spent under cover, sitting on a bench and leaning on a rope would not be so difficult to endure.

As for the contribution of authors such as London and Mayhew to the understanding of the plight of Victorian and Edwardian London's poor, whether theirs was a middle-class perspective or not, they played a crucial role in raising awareness and bringing about reform. They had the time and money to carry out their research and they were in a position to influence policies. They also played an important part in turning around the theory that poverty was something that the feckless masses brought upon themselves.

That is not to say that the work of Fishman, Sinclair and Rachel Lichenstien is not also very valuable. All of these authors have contributed hugely to the concept of 'history from below'. Mayhew and London's work was carried out to document the way the working classes lived and worked and, to some extent, illustrate that poverty was something that needed to be dealt with on a national policy-making basis. The work of Sinclair, Fishman, Lichenstien and similar authors has highlighted the close, rich cultural networks of working class life. Their focus has been not just on poverty, but on social cohesion - a celebration of working class culture and life - much in the way that E P Thompson did in The Making of the Englsih Working Class.

Absolutely correct,Limehouse.I couldnt agree more and I would add A.L. Morton"s," A People"s History of England" to the list as well as Engel"s [updated] 1892 edition of 'Condition of the Working Class in England" .
All played their part in bringing about a better life for many East Enders. But it was the people of the East End themselves who were ultimately responsible for bringing about the greatest changes to their lives and standards of living.
A truly volcanic struggle was taking place all over the UK in the late 1880"s against unemployment -Bloody Sunday of 1887 was a part of it .But it was equally for better working conditions all round---for example for a reduced working day for those in work--[from 12 to 8 hours]for a rise in wages by 6 pence a day together with better working conditions.The great success of the Match Girls strike in 1888 at Bryant and Mays in Bow,had actually led the way -throughout the UK- for healthier working conditions and an improved national wage ie above poverty level , it was quickly followed by the Great Dock Strike of 1889 when 200,000 workers marched through the streets of Whitechapel.
In other words,it was the very "people of the abyss", far from being a passive pool of torpid despair, who were the ones who led the way for the tumultuous growth in militancy among workers throughout Britain ,which led in turn to a political breakthrough and towards an all round improvement nationally ,in working conditions,wages and health in working class life .
All this improvement was interrupted though by the outbreak of the 1st World War in 1914.

[Robert]

Obviously we have a mixed bag here. Yes of course the poor themselves did a lot towards bettering their standard of life. This isn't the first time it's happened by any means - look at the Chartists.

On the other hand, they couldn't have done it alone. Public opinion helped to win the match girls' strike, and the German army helped to improve living conditions - the Powers That Be realised that thin, stunted hovel dwellers would have a hard time of it when the next war came along, and started to feel very concerned for their health. Add in the need to placate a much wider electorate, plus several other factors, and you get the usual multi-causal explanation, just as you do for any historical process or event.

[Limehouse]

Absolutely correct,Limehouse.I couldnt agree more and I would add A.L. Morton"s," A People"s History of England" to the list as well as Engel"s [updated] 1892 edition of 'Condition of the Working Class in England" .
All played their part in bringing about a better life for many East Enders. But it was the people of the East End themselves who were ultimately responsible for bringing about the greatest changes to their lives and standards of living.
A truly volcanic struggle was taking place all over the UK in the late 1880"s against unemployment -Bloody Sunday of 1887 was a part of it .But it was equally for better working conditions all round---for example for a reduced working day for those in work--[from 12 to 8 hours]for a rise in wages by 6 pence a day together with better working conditions.The great success of the Match Girls strike in 1888 at Bryant and Mays in Bow,had actually led the way -throughout the UK- for healthier working conditions and an improved national wage ie above poverty level , it was quickly followed by the Great Dock Strike of 1889 when 200,000 workers marched through the streets of Whitechapel.
In other words,it was the very "people of the abyss", far from being a passive pool of torpid despair, who were the ones who led the way for the tumultuous growth in militancy among workers throughout Britain ,which led in turn to a political breakthrough and towards an all round improvement nationally ,in working conditions,wages and health in working class life .
All this improvement was interrupted though by the outbreak of the 1st World War in 1914.

I totally agree Natalie. The working classes were themsleves active in gaining better working and living conditions.

[harry]

Phillip,
You could of course prove the two persons 'Bonkers' by means of a practical test.Do not get me wrong,I am not denying the importance of writers like Jack London and others mentioned,and I have lived as a poor person through the 1930's depression,when conditions were every bit as bad as the 1880's,so am very much aware of what poor people could or would do. I am challenging a pysical feat of standing or sitting,in a row,asleep,draped over a rope stretched between two points,night after night,for hours at a time.People who might have been,because of circumstances,in poor health,disabled,or just plain drunk.I believe it would have been impossible,wheras others believe the opposite.

[The Good Michael]

Harry,

These things are possible for short periods of time. When I was in the military and on guard duty away from everyone, I sometimes fell asleep leaning against a tree or kind of using my rifle as a prop. I agree that it would be something out of my experience to do this all night long and for several nights in a row, but a person can do this for 15 - 20 minutes at a time, change positions, and do it again. I'd imagine that I could do it for 3 or 4 nights in a row, and then I'd need a night of real sleep. These are just my thoughts and as they pertain to me. Dozing is all that is necessary for a few nights at a time, in my opinion. I should think a quart of gin would make it even more likely.

Cheers,

Mike

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Harry

You are denying what people are telling you FIRST HAND here as well as contemporary accounts, and these denials are based upon personal experience and supposition. That's just sticking your fingers and your ears and humming.

If you're tired enough, you can sleep anywhere. The quality and level of sleep, however, is another matter. It would be almost impossible to enter deep REM sleep, I grant you, but you are just saying you don't think it is possible to sleep hanging over a rope and therefore it didn't happen. Yes, I do think that's bonkers.

PHILIP

[harry]

Philip,
The contempory accounts do not include claims of having slept that way themselves,only of others having done so.
No doubt when you are tired one can sleep anywhere,but not anyhow,and certainly not on a rope.Impossible.A paratroop friend of mine says he can never remember sleeping so on an aircraft,or of seeing others do it,and all the factual accounts of airborne forces that I have read,do not speak of the method,and I have travelled on countless subways and not seen travellers sleeping while hanging from a strap.
Of the Whitechapel victims,we do hear of fourpence for a bed,but not fourpence for a rope,and outside of Children of the Abyss,no accounts of the period I have read contain that method of sleeping.And me being bonkers does not negate a single thing I have written,but I am surprised and disheartened that a person like yourself should use such expression to try and score a point.Why not stick to sources,or better still,experiment.