The People of the Abyss

[Mike Covell]

"The Photographers are the men ......" you get the picture!

[George Hutchinson]

Phillip,
I do not post for favours.I thought though you might have commented on the Victoria Cross episode,which clearly shows a lack of truthfulness.Still your decision to shut up rather than put up is noted.

No, Harry, you're wrong - but then why does that not surprise me?

You have shown yourself on this thread to be impervious to rationale and any degree of reason or explanation on this subject again and again.

I am not commenting further not because I can't, but because I have and we're all wasting our breath on something that is ultimately not important in the great scheme of things.

I don't have to respond to one account of fiction compared to reams of first-hand testimony and primary source material (what makes 'official' more reliable, Harry?) because I'm not the one looking like an idiot here. I think it's fairly evident to all the other posters that it what is actually happening.

PHILIP

[harry]

Sam,
Iv'e seen many photos of building interiors from that period,and I'm sure one of a line of people sleeping on a rope would have been a photographers dream,and well worth the effort of setting up equipment.No doubt,another signal that the scene wasn't there to be photograped.
Philip,
One account of fiction,purporting to be the truth,is as harmful as a dozen.It shows the person guilty of distorting the truth.
But look,just for this idiot's sake,and supposing a rope could be used for supporting a line of sleeping people,give me a lesson on how.Type of rope,height of rope,sleeping positions,effect on others of movement,length of sleep periods,effect of rope on sagging bodies etc.In fact a complete rundown on how the human body would react and cope in such situations,and bearing in mind the type of people involved,and the numbers.
I'm interested,and I could be converted.Who knows.It will have to be mighty persuasive though.as it's not wholly for my benefit,but also for a sleep expert I have got interested.

[smezenen]

Harry,
You refuse to believe that people could have and did sleep hanging over a rope. I have sited at least three written accounts but you discount them becouse there is no photo evidence. Acording to your way of thinking; prehistoric man didnt use fire, vikings didnt raid Europe, Hanabal didnt march an army over the Alps, Columbus didnt sail the atlantic, Anne Boleyn was not beheaded, and the Mexican army didnt attack the Alamo becouse there are no photographs to prove it. I have given evidence alibit not photographic that this method of sleeping was in fact used but you sir have given no evidence that it was not. If we are only to trust photographic evidence then every thing prior to Thomas Wedgwoods sun pictures in 1800 never occured or existed.

[harry]

Smezenem,
Had there been photo equipment at the periods you describe,I am sure,there would have been enormous amounts of photos to support the facts.What we do have though are huge amounts of documentary proof,but show me one photograph or one document that proves the existence of a known Doss house where the practices under discussion was carried out,or the names of it's proprieters.
I take note of the examples you gave,and I give credit to you for being the only one to speak from personnel experience.I accept your truthfullness.However it is a far cry from the young super fit individuals you portray to the disease ridden,feeble bodied,drink sodden,half starved unfortunates of the late nineteenth century.Do you honestly believe they could have done what you and your comrades did?,and it is those people that are the focus of my claims.
Look,I will not be posting on this thread or this site again,where the only technique of one poster at least,is personnel abuse,but I do wish you and other posters the best.
Regards.

[harry]

Smezenem,
Had there been photo equipment at the periods you describe,I am sure,there would have been enormous amounts of photos to support the facts.What we do have though are huge amounts of documentary proof,but show me one photograph or one document that proves the existence of a known Doss house where the practices under discussion was carried out,or the names of it's proprieters.
I take note of the examples you gave,and I give credit to you for being the only one to speak from personnel experience.I accept your truthfullness.However it is a far cry from the young super fit individuals you portray to the disease ridden,feeble bodied,drink sodden,half starved unfortunates of the late nineteenth century.Do you honestly believe they could have done what you and your comrades did?,and it is those people that are the focus of my claims.
Look,I will not be posting on this thread or this site again,where the only technique of one poster at least,is personnel abuse,but I do wish you and other posters the best.
Regards.

[George Hutchinson]

I take it you mean me as being the abuser, Harry?

There is a difference between abuse and comments based on evidence. To call your incessant conviction of this highly unlikely supposition 'bonkers' or 'idiotic' is, to my mind, perfectly acceptable. I was not passing opinion on you as an individual but on your views. Many a Ripper historian has one dark area that is totally bizarre, and I suppose this is yours. So, who is the one running away?

PHILIP

[smezenen]

Yes harry i do think those disease ridden,feeble bodied,drink sodden,half starved unfortunates could have passed out hanging over a rope. Given enough drink they probably could have passed out hanging over Barbwire. yes i agree that its unusual that there are no pictures of this but that is no reason to say that it did not occur. The point of my last post was basicly photos are not the only form of proof, as you restated when you said we have documentary proof and that is the argument i have with your logic, i fail to see how you can believeone thing without a photo but absolutly deny another thing becose of the lack of a photo even when there is other documentary proof.

[harry]

Philip,
You overate yourself.I'm not running away from you.You're insignificant.My decision to leave is because person's like yourself are allowed to use personnel abuse.You used the word idiot,check your posts,and it was directed at me personnaly,so why not admitl the truth.Better you answer questons I pose you,instead of ranting on about the way I post.Who decided I had to follow the pack?You?.Convince me by evidence that sleeping on ropes ever took place.Name places,witnesses.You were not there,so what or who is your source.How did your source know.Spell it out so I can see the evidence.All I have seen from you are claims it happened,but no evidence to bolster those claims.It had to have happened somewhere and been witnessed by someone.Where and by whom.Answer my questions in a rational way and I'll answer likewise,but lets have evidence and not the tired old'Youve been told but wont listen.I haven't been told but I will listen.
Smezenen,
Ive amply answered your post in my post to Phillip.You too have made plenty of claims,so lets have detailed evidence.I'm interested in what happened in late 19th century,early 20th century East end London,not what someone is doing in America today.

[Mr.Hyde]

Hi.
Suggest going to "Four penny coffin" on Wikipedia.
AKA "two penny hangover".One penny for the rope.

[Mr.Hyde]

Incidentally,is there a 12 Step Programme for Ripperologists.
Suspect I may need it one day.

[smezenen]

Harry,
You asked for documented evidence, I guess you missed my post on page 5 where I gave 3 written references to sleeping over a rope. All 3 where writen during the 1800's or early 1900's 2 where written in England and 1 in France. Since you missed that post here they are again.

1- Magic Skin by Honoré de Balzac writen in 1831.
2- George Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London written in 1933.
Both these accounts describe lodgers siting on a bench and leaning over a rope that is streached the length of the room. Sometime in the early morning a Valet would cut the rope to wake the lodgers.

3- Charles Dickens' The Pickwick Papers written in 1837 in chapter 16
Mr. Dickens gives a different description then the other two he describes it like this, they has two ropes, 'bout six foot apart, and three from the floor, which goes right down the room; and the beds are made of slips of coarse sacking, Stretched across 'em.' At six o'clock every mornin' they let's go the ropes at one end, and down falls the lodgers. All three accounts are similar except the 2 ropes in the pickwick papers.

[Mr.Hyde]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pennysitup.jpg

That's a link to a picture of the benches without the rope.

[Mr.Hyde]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Himalayas.jpg

That's a link to the Abominable Snowmen,without him in it.
Lighten up folks!

[smezenen]

Thanks Mr. Hyde i have been looking for 2 days to find anything close. even without the ropes you can clearly see in the center of the picture a few people leaning forward against the bench in front of them asleep. The picture is of the Blackfriars and was located in central London. It was operated in the late 1800's by the Salvation army as a homeless shelter. For a penny you where alowed to sit on the bench all night but you where not permited to lay down so would have to sleep sitting up.
Harry, this picture doesnt show ropes but I think it does show that the people of the times did sleep in places described in the other literature that did use ropes to lean on. I know you will still claim this is not proof but at the very least you have to now open your mind to the possibility.

another thought as i close this post this picture was taken in 1900 could one of the men in the pic be Jack himself?