PC Neil's Route

[FrankO]

That is great, Frank. So much easier to get ones head round who was were and just how easy it was for them to miss each other, when you have a map to look at. I assume the yellow lines are PC Neil's beat. If so would be interested to know where this information came from and are there any other beats available?

Hi Station Cat,

The yellow line is indeed Neil's beat, but just as I have interpreted it from the newspaper snippet posted by Rosella, which contained the 5 beats covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal Green.

All the best,
Frank

[Billiou]

Hi Station Cat,

The yellow line is indeed Neil's beat, but just as I have interpreted it from the newspaper snippet posted by Rosella, which contained the 5 beats covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal Green.

All the best,
Frank

Well done on the map Frank.
Also take into account that we know Neil was traveling in a clockwise direction on his beat (he says he was heading down Buck's Row towards Brady St), and also note that in one newspaper report in the Evening Post that "he was proceeding down Buck’s-row Whitechapel, from Thomas-street". I suspect that as Queens Ann St was part of his beat he went down there from Thomas and then back to Thomas.
I estimate his beat at approx. 900 metres in circumference and with another approx. 690 metres of side streets and passageways to cover.
All just suppositions, but the best we have from the info we have.

[drstrange169]

Hello Frank,

Thanks for the map. I note there are at least 5 sections unpatrolled on it.
Did you have a reason in mind for them?

The thing I noticed about "Mizen's" beat in Monty's book was that it was quite complicated in the way to covered everywhere including both sides of the road.

[Rosella]

Thank you for the map, Frank. It does make things clear.

However, an observation I read from a contemporary magazine keeps echoing in my head, vis about policemen enjoying a nice chat with workers in businesses open on their beat. Even at night some places would be open, and if it was a few words here, and a sandwich there and a chat and a cuppa wherever, God knows where some coppers were after the beat sergeant had gone off.

There were complaints at the time that a policeman could never be found when wanted and I think in the early months of the ripper hunt (until the streets were flooded with fellow officers) that was probably true.

[FrankO]

The basic beat route is outlined in the article posted by Rosella (and Simon a year ago), but the actual route Neil took is open to speculation, given all the side roads, courts and alleys.

I agree that that actual route Neil took is open to speculation, Joshua. The route I posted was, like I wrote, just my interpretation and I made it to see how long it would more or less be if had him enter all the side road, courts and alleys. And I found that this would tally with additional information given by Monty, too (thanks for that, Monty). Because a beat of about 2.4 km/1.5 miles, walked at a speed of 4.8 km or 3 miles an hour would be covered in appr. 30 minutes.

That route looks perfectly feasible, but do you think Neil could even have been in Queen Ann Street when the carmen went to find Mizen?

That is, of course, possible if he was north of the curve in Queen Ann Street (north of Cross(!) Street). Thomas Street seems somewhat more likely to me, though, since Queen Ann Street wasn’t mentioned in any newspaper with regards to Neil’s inquest appearance, while Thomas Street was. The Daily News of 3 September even said: “Police constable John Neil deposed that on Friday morning at a quarter to four o'clock he was going down Buck's row, Whitechapel, from Thomas street to Brady street.” But, again, it’s evenly possible to have missed the 2 carmen while in Queen Ann Street.

If Neil was in Winthrop Street, Buck's Row, Thomas St and as far away as Whitechapel Road and Bakers Row, it looks to me as if he was walking the full beat, or the majority at least, rather than a half beat. Yes?

It would seem so to me, too, Joshua.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

I suspect that as Queens Ann St was part of his beat he went down there from Thomas and then back to Thomas.

Quite possible, Bill.

I estimate his beat at approx. 900 metres in circumference and with another approx. 690 metres of side streets and passageways to cover.
All just suppositions, but the best we have from the info we have.

The map I used (see here: http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...761&layers=163) contains a tool to measure distance and measuring (almost) the whole beat (as I think it was, covering all the side streets, courts and alleys) I came to some 1,300 meters on the exterior beat and almost 2.400 meters incl. the ‘interiors’.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

I note there are at least 5 sections unpatrolled on it.
Did you have a reason in mind for them?

Hi Dusty,

No, but I do think he must have covered them, at least every now and then.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

However, an observation I read from a contemporary magazine keeps echoing in my head, vis about policemen enjoying a nice chat with workers in businesses open on their beat. Even at night some places would be open, and if it was a few words here, and a sandwich there and a chat and a cuppa wherever, God knows where some coppers were after the beat sergeant had gone off.

Good point, Rosella. The beat PC’s undoubtedly had a chat or a cuppa every now and then, as a diversion from the dull routinge of following the beat every half hour or so. To not make their beat any longer I can imagine that they compensated such breaks by not covering everything on each round.

Cheers,
Frank

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks for the link in #51 Frank, that's a very useful mapping tool.

I notice Thomas Street cuts across Buck's Row, so I suppose it could be that Neil was walking up it from Whitechapel Road before turning East along Buck's Row and finding the body.
If Monty is right about the split beats at night, is it possible that PC Neil was patrolling everything between the South side of Buck's Row and Whitechapel Road, and his beat partner the North side and above? How do those distances measure up?
Then again, if that were the case, it would only be a 15 minute circuit, and someone would probably have identified the other PC by now.

[FrankO]

I notice Thomas Street cuts across Buck's Row, so I suppose it could be that Neil was walking up it from Whitechapel Road before turning East along Buck's Row and finding the body.

Quite possibly, Joshua, although that doesn’t fit with Neil’s statement that the farthest he had been that night was up Baker's-row and that he was on the north side of the street when he saw the body and crossed the street to go get a good look.

If Monty is right about the split beats at night, is it possible that PC Neil was patrolling everything between the South side of Buck's Row and Whitechapel Road, and his beat partner the North side and above? How do those distances measure up?

If it was split, I would think that one PC would do the north and south side of Buck’s Row eastwards from the Board School and the other Winthrop Street. That would be more practical and that way I would think the distances would also be more evenly divided.

Hopefully Monty chimes in again to shed some light...

Then again, if that were the case, it would only be a 15 minute circuit, and someone would probably have identified the other PC by now.

You might have a point there.

Cheers,
Frank

[Joshua Rogan]

Quite possibly, Joshua, although that doesn’t fit with Neil’s statement that the farthest he had been that night was up Baker's-row and that he was on the north side of the street when he saw the body and crossed the street to go get a good look.

Well I was trying to make everything fit with his statement and what we (think we) know of his beat. So 'up Baker's Row' isn't inconsistent, if he turned into White's Row, although it's true that it's not as far 'up' as Thomas Street.
And I think it was Cross who was on the North side and had to cross the road. PC Neil said he said he "went across", which I took the mean across the intervening ground, rather than the street. Certainly his testimony seems to put him on the South side;

"I was proceeding down Buck's-row, Whitechapel, going towards Brady-street. There was not a soul about. I had been round there half an hour previously, and I saw no one then. I was on the right-hand side of the street, when I noticed a figure lying in the street. It was dark at the time, though there was a street lamp shining at the end of the row. I went across and found deceased lying outside a gateway, her head towards the east."

But you're right, it makes more sense if one PC patrolled the whole street, so whichever side he was on is probably irrelevant.

[Monty]

If Monty is right?

Monty
😐

[GUT]

If Monty is right?

Monty
😐

Nah... I believe in miracles, but that's just stretching things too far....

[Columbo]

Dumb question but why would Mizen be knocking people up? doesnt that mean he's waking people up?

Columbo

[GUT]

Dumb question but why would Mizen be knocking people up? doesnt that mean he's waking people up?

Columbo

It was part of the job, and yep that's what it means.