PC Neil's Route

[Hair Bear]

Hi
Can someone help me with PC Neil's route. I watched the recent Christer Holgram documentary and took note of what he said was Neil's route. This distance is approximately 725 metres, which takes less than nine minutes to walk. But PC Neil said that it took him half an hour to get from and then back around to the Nichols' murder spot. That's a 21 minute deficiency, and therefore doesn't add up. So either he's the Ripper, or else there is some other (doubtless perfectly plausible) reason for the additional 21 minutes. Help! Also, has anyone got any background information on Neil?

[Monty]

Hi
Can someone help me with PC Neil's route. I watched the recent Christer Holgram documentary and took note of what he said was Neil's route. This distance is approximately 725 metres, which takes less than nine minutes to walk. But PC Neil said that it took him half an hour to get from and then back around to the Nichols' murder spot. That's a 21 minute deficiency, and therefore doesn't add up. So either he's the Ripper, or else there is some other (doubtless perfectly plausible) reason for the additional 21 minutes. Help! Also, has anyone got any background information on Neil?

CSI Whitechapel by Bennett and Begg has the route mapped out. Personally I've not come across the exact route but I have no reason to doubt them.

Beats were walked at 2 1/2 mph in the day, 3 mph in the evening. This needs to be taken into account. Also, checks were made on vulnerable buildings, which took time to execute.

Neil hailed from Macroom, in Ireland, and lived in Chamber Street at one stage. He moved from K to J division during the 86 reorganisation.

Monty

[David Orsam]

The Times of 03.09.88 said, "The beat is a very short one, and quickly walked over would not occupy more than 12 minutes".

I have always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the 12 minutes was calculated as the time it would have taken Neil to walk from the start of the beat (point A) to the end of the beat (point B) so that, if it took 12 minutes to walk from point A to point B, it must have taken another 12 minutes to walk back from point B to point A, so that the entire circular route of the beat would have taken 24 minutes, without interruptions.

If I'm wrong, however, there are plenty of reasons why it could have taken longer to walk a complete beat than the actual walking time. Neil had various duties to perform such as checking premises were secure, noting broken street lights and calling up. At 3:30am he might have had a number of residents on his beat who needed to be called up. In addition, policemen were not robots and no doubt needed "comfort" breaks and were allowed to take refreshments as long as they had permission. Neil might also have stopped to speak briefly to the night watchmen along his beat and possibly to other officers.

So the half-an-hour it apparently took him does not, I think, mean that he was Jack the Ripper.

[Hair Bear]

Thanks, guys.

To continue... The 12 minutes would definitely refer to the time it took to walk the entire route once round (he was walking in a loop, point A to point A), and would realistically be less than 12 minutes ("would not occupy 12 minutes"). CSI: Whitechapel only gives an overview of PC Neil's patch, not his exact movements that night. Holgram was more specific: he has PC Neil walking up Thomas Street and avoiding Baker's Row (as suggested by Begg/Bennett). I think it is vital that we know the exact route PC Neil, and indeed everyone, took that night. We can then better piece together Nichols' movements. Whilst I won't rule out Neil from being the Ripper, that's only because I rule out no one, and I agree that this it is highly unlikely and that in all probability he was knocking people up/taking a leak/checking doors etc. If Holgram has Neil's movements right, and we further assume that Neil's 3:45am time (the time he said he found Nichols) is right, then his average speed puts him at the bottom of Thomas Street (heading up to Buck's Row) at 3:36am. That means that Cross and Paul, who he didn't see or hear, must have already passed Thomas Street by 3:36am, in which case they must have left Nichols no later than 3:35am. Two things: Does anyone know how to contract Holgram? Because I'd like to know where he got Neil's route from (to make sure that it is correct). And should I now move this discussion to a "Cross was guilty", or some such, thread?

[David Orsam]

In quoting "would not occupy 12 minutes" you have missed out the words "quickly walked over" which, by my interpretation, means that, if Neil walked the beat slowly, it would have occupied more than 12 minutes. I also don't know how you can say the 12 minutes is "definitely" the looped time from A to A. I mean, I understand why you say it, but in the context of the newspaper report mentioning that Neil was last on the spot where the body was found half an hour previously, I don't personally think we can rule out the notion that the newspaper was referring to A to B so that the loop would have taken 24 minutes at a quick pace, as opposed to 6 minutes from A to B. But I'm not certain because, like you, I would normally have expected the time stated to be the loop.

[Monty]

The best people to answer would be the guys (John, Paul, Christer/Blink) themselves.

J divisions beat book for that period is missing or destroyed. I couldn't locate it when researching my book upon the subject, so its an answer we may never know.

As for beats. Beat for a section were all measure as near as possibly the same. Each completed, as near as possibly, in 30 minutes. However, beats were halved at night, with two PCs completing a 15 minute beat. So, in the day a beat would be approximately 30 minutes, at night 15.

However Neil stated he was last at the scene half an hour ago. He does not explain why, and mentions no incident. This leads me to conclude that either J division were operating a day beat in that area or Neil had taken his tea beak, which he was permitted to do at a set time.

Monty

[Robert]

Hi Monty

Just taking some guy down to the station would knock a huge hole in a beat, wouldn't it? You can't make a reluctant bloke walk at regulation speed.

[GUT]

G'day Monty

Can you clear something up for me, I always understood that when on a "half beat" officer one would go from a to b to a and officer 2 from b to a to b thus passing each other at c and d.

Is that not correct?

[Hair Bear]

Thanks, guys.

To continue... The 12 minutes would definitely refer to the time it took to walk the entire route once round (he was walking in a loop, point A to point A), and would realistically be less than 12 minutes ("would not occupy 12 minutes"). CSI: Whitechapel only gives an overview of PC Neil's patch, not his exact movements that night. Holgram was more specific: he has PC Neil walking up Thomas Street and avoiding Baker's Row (as suggested by Begg/Bennett). I think it is vital that we know the exact route PC Neil, and indeed everyone, took that night. We can then better piece together Nichols' movements. Whilst I won't rule out Neil from being the Ripper, that's only because I rule out no one, and I agree that this it is highly unlikely and that in all probability he was knocking people up/taking a leak/checking doors etc. If Holgram has Neil's movements right, and we further assume that Neil's 3:45am time (the time he said he found Nichols) is right, then his average speed puts him at the bottom of Thomas Street (heading up to Buck's Row) at 3:36am. That means that Cross and Paul, who he didn't see or hear, must have already passed Thomas Street by 3:36am, in which case they must have left Nichols no later than 3:35am. Two things: Does anyone know how to contract Holgram? Because I'd like to know where he got Neil's route from (to make sure that it is correct). And should I now move this discussion to a "Cross was guilty", or some such, thread?

[Monty]

Bennett and Begg produce a map, this is a bit more than an overview.

However, how accurate the map is I don't know. I do know both JB and Paul very well, they tip top researchers, and I suspect the beat was created via newspaper acounts. We do know Neil mentions Thomas St, so we can take that as part of his beat.

The beat may vary on each pass. He may have taken Winthrop on one, and Bucks Row on the tother. As we do not have the beat book, and the details of the beat not fully laid out in newspaper, as Hair Bear states, any recreation of Neils beat is speculation.

As for the beat. They were loops, start back to start.

Cheers
Monty
:g)

[Monty]

Indeed Robert.

Monty

[Hair Bear]

Thanks for the updates everyone.

"The best people to answer would be the guys (John, Paul, Christer/Blink) themselves." Any idea how I might do that?

Also: We know that Neil was walking from Thomas Street into Buck's Row and was heading eastwards towards Brady Street. That, to me, would indicate he was walking in a 'point A to point A' loop. If not, I can't work out where point A to point B, and then back, would be. Any suggestions, please?

[Hair Bear]

Ah, I see Monty answered the loop question whilst I was typing. Sorry!

[Monty]

The one thing you need to factor into your theory Hair Bear at Section Sergeants.

Monty

[Hair Bear]

The one thing you need to factor into your theory Hair Bear at Section Sergeants.

Monty

Please expand on that.