PC Neil's Route

[Elamarna]

Robert, what an interesting observation .

How about this then....................

What if PC Neil's beat, WASN'T his beat at all. What if he was on "Reserve", that night and had only been deployed to this beat, following the original officer covering that beat arriving at the station with a prisoner and then Neil being assigned to cover the beat whilst the original officer booked his prisoner in with the custody sergeant. That would certainly leave a large gap in the beat, more than enough time for Jack to do his work at a leisurely pace (perhaps Jack was even aware that the beat bobby proper was going to be committed for a while) and took the opportunity............

Further add to this that perhaps Neil hadn't done this beat before so didn't follow it exactly to form, this again might make gaps. Especially if he didn't know he was doing the beat incorrectly.

Hi Station Cat

Why do you think there needs to be a gap? I seriously see no need for any gap for the killer to do his work.
Would like to understand the reasoning as it's something not considered before.

All the best

Steve

[The Station Cat]

Hi Station Cat

Why do you think there needs to be a gap? I seriously see no need for any gap for the killer to do his work.
Would like to understand the reasoning as it's something not considered before.

All the best

Steve

No need for a gap just throwing the concept out there, there is clear evidence that one existed, in the form of discrepancies between timings claimed by those involved. Which is inevitable I suppose.

But going back to me following theory...................



I suspect that Bethnal Green Station, would have been responsable for roughly this area. As far North as Hackney Road, as fair east as Collingwood Road, as far south as Durwood Street and as far west as the boundary with H division.

The question is how many bobbies did they have covering this area. The 1881 & 1891 censuses list 13 officers as resident in the station, perhaps the same again in the surrounding community. These would have been split over 3, 8 hour shifts. So lets say roughly 10 bobbies and perhaps one Sgt on the beat, all the beats would interconnect if not overlap. I suspect that this wasn't enough to cover the area satisfactorily. It is well documented by several witnesses that they rarely saw an officer (the night watchmen on Bucks Row itself being one example).

[Elamarna]

No need for a gap just throwing the concept out there, there is clear evidence that one existed, in the form of discrepancies between timings claimed by those involved. Which is inevitable I suppose.

But going back to me following theory...................



I suspect that Bethnal Green Station, would have been responsable for roughly this area. As far North as Hackney Road, as fair east as Collingwood Road, as far south as Durwood Street and as far west as the boundary with H division.

The question is how many bobbies did they have covering this area. The 1881 & 1891 censuses list 13 officers as resident in the station, perhaps the same again in the surrounding community. These would have been split over 3, 8 hour shifts. So lets say roughly 10 bobbies and perhaps one Sgt on the beat, all the beats would interconnect if not overlap. I suspect that this wasn't enough to cover the area satisfactorily. It is well documented by several witnesses that they rarely saw an officer (the night watchmen on Bucks Row itself being one example).

Thanks I understand now.

Personally I would be careful with the statements of the night watchman when one takes into account all of his testimony.


Steve

[Robert]

http://www.casebook.org/victims/polly.crossneil.html

[The Station Cat]

CSI Whitechapel by Bennett and Begg has the route mapped out. Personally I've not come across the exact route but I have no reason to doubt them.

Monty

This beat doesn't seem particularly long. Personally I think it would have been longer than this. I'm basing my conclusion on, that of available man power. If every beat was a similar length, then over 100 officers would have been required, to cover the whole patch, which they didn't appear to have anywhere near? If you compare it to the various H division beats, we can confirm, they are considerably longer than that given in CSI Whitechapel.

[Elamarna]

This beat doesn't seem particularly long. Personally I think it would have been longer than this. I'm basing my conclusion on, that of available man power. If every beat was a similar length, then over 100 officers would have been required, to cover the whole patch, which they didn't appear to have anywhere near? If you compare it to the various H division beats, we can confirm, they are considerably longer than that given in CSI Whitechapel.

Hi

Have you seen posts 41 and 43, they give a reasonable length of beat and seem to fit with Neil's timings


Steve

[Elamarna]

http://www.casebook.org/victims/polly.crossneil.html

Robert thanks for that link.

My only reservation is the placing of Mulshsw.
He claimed he was only 30 yards from the murder site in a straight line. He is far further away on that plan. I have placed him around the railway line myself at the other end of the street.


Steve

[Monty]

In 1888, J division had a strength of 38 Inspectors, 56 sergeants and 417 Constables, of which two thirds were employed on nighty duty

Neil stated "his beat" and his collar number indicated he was not a reserve. If he was, his prefix would be 'JR' and not 'J'.

Monty
��

[The Station Cat]

In 1888, J division had a strength of 38 Inspectors, 56 sergeants and 417 Constables, of which two thirds were employed on nightly duty

Monty
��

That's not very many when you consider just how big J Division was and the bit we're interested in was only a very small part of it, roughly the same size as H Division, but where as H had 4 stations and a section house, Bethnal Green area only had two stations and no section house (that I'm aware of) and we're only interested in one of those stations, that being 458 Bethnal Green Road, which only had 13 bobbies resident and about the same again perhaps living in the immediate community. That doesn't give us very many, especially if Neil's beat was so small as suggested in CSI Whitechapel.

[The Station Cat]

Echo
London, U.K.
21 September 1888

EAST END MURDERS
THE POLICEMEN'S NIGHT BEATS
THE PRESENT PRECAUTIONS
A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed. From this it will be seen that the murderer had no doubt a considerable time in which he was quite sure of being undisturbed by a police constable, assuming he knew the beats. It seems that, notwithstanding the frequent repetition of murders round Whitechapel, under circumstances leading to the conclusion that they were the work of one man, not one single extra police officer was put upon the ground until after the commission of the fourth and last murder. Then the streets were filled night and by by police in and out of uniform.

During the month of August, and up to the 8th instant, when Annie Chapman was killed, the following beats were covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal Green, these forming what is known as the "Second Section night duty." The first police constable would commence his two beats at Wilmot street, three Colt land, Cheshire street, Mape street, Bethnal Green road, to Wilmot street, and the interior, this consisting of a few streets, courts, passages, &c. The second constable would cover Three Colt lane, Collingwood street, Darling row, Dog row, Whitechapel road, Brady street, to Three Colt lane, and the interior, this consisting of about twenty streets, courts, passages, &c; the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c. The fourth constable would commence at Baker's row, go through Nottingham street, White street, Bethnal Green road, Mape street, London street, to Baker's row, and all the interior, consisting of about thirty streets, courts, passages, &c. The fifth and last man of the section would cover Whitechapel road alone, this making a total of nine beats for the five constables. The third beat was the one within the limit of which Mrs. Nicholl (sic) was murdered. The exterior of the beats are at least a mile in extent, and to this distance must be added the interiors.

[The Station Cat]

Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.

[Elamarna]

Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.

Hi station cat

The first of your two posts was in post #41 your map is slightly different from that in post
43, the major differences being Winthrop street and how this was approached and the Northern end of Queen Anne street which you have left off. Queen Anne interests me so can I ask the reasoning for that decision?


Cheers


Steve

[Elamarna]

Beat Number 3 as conducted by PC97J John NEIL on the 31st August 1888.

Have to say also confused how this proposal for the route actually workd, he was walking from the west end of Bucks Row when he found Nichols and one assume he was therefore working clockwise. The division at Winthrope really seems out.

I personally think the one in post #43 works better , but am open to persuasion on it as it's not set in stone

Steve

[The Station Cat]

Hi station cat

The first of your two posts was in post #41 your map is slightly different from that in post
43, the major differences being Winthrop street and how this was approached and the Northern end of Queen Anne street which you have left off. Queen Anne interests me so can I ask the reasoning for that decision?


Cheers


Steve

Steve, Thanks for pointing out post #41 for me, missed that one. Was so proud of myself really thought I was onto something with my map (which took me ages to do, I hasten to add) & the newspaper report, which I see is also old news .


I agreed Queen Anne Street is a puzzle, I wonder if the beats overlapped in places. I'm assuming that the Northern Part of it would have been covered in the same beat that covered the Northern part of Baker's Row perhaps, but I'm just guessing here. Unless the bobby walked up one side and down the other, thus doubling back on himself, which isn't an unreasonable hypothesis? All I've got to go on is the newspaper report, as the original beat maps have long since been lost. But moving onto Winthrop street, I'm just guessing here, otherwise it appears that it wouldn't have been included in a beat, which would appear odd? Am I right in thinking this was mostly commercial buildings (slaughter house/Thain's cape fame, etc??).

[The Station Cat]

Have to say also confused how this proposal for the route actually workd, he was walking from the west end of Bucks Row when he found Nichols and one assume he was therefore working clockwise. The division at Winthrope really seems out.

I personally think the one in post #43 works better , but am open to persuasion on it as it's not set in stone

Steve

Steve, yeh I'll have that #43 does certainly appear more accurate, but mine is more aesthetically pleasing

But on a plus note, the newspaper report does confirm my hypothesis about staffing levels, with nine beats for 5 bobbies.............