PC Neil's Route

[Monty]

A Section Sergeant kept an eye on the men who conducted beats in his section, in this case Sgt Kirby.

He would patrol his section, and meet up with the PCs at set times and locations. However, he would also do spot checks, ensuring the PC was where he should be, and not in the Pub.

So with that in mind, do you think Neil would risk murder? And how do you explain the other murders?

Just curious.

Monty
:y

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Just a couple of off-shoot questions re police beats.

1. Am I correct in saying that all activity is recorded by each beat policeman whilst doing their rounds? (i.e. that P. C. No name had to rescue Tiddles the cat stuck up a lampost. .5 mins and quelling two quarrelling neighbours at No. 24 Balmoral Rd...10 mins).

2. If the above be true..within the bounds of serious need for the attention of the police of course..would it be reasonable to surmise that no recorded notes meant little if nothing worth recording?

3. Would any police detective in plain clothes be bound by area at this time?(Detective constables and sergeants for example.)

Just asking. No ulterior motive.
It may however help people to understand the "discrepancies" they may or may not see in time lining the movements of any such policeman involved in any of the areas where the murders took place.



Phil

[Monty]

Hello Phil,

1. Anything of significance is noted. An arrest, a shop door unlocked, or any person acting suspicious are just a few examples. The rescuing of cats, or moving on of barrows, would only be noted if warranted.

2. If it was deemed nothing of significance occurred, yes.

3. Depends on their duty. If conducting enquiries, they would approach the relevant local CID, who would either conduct enquiries on the requesting divisions behalf, or grant permission for them to do so. However, if the matter is urgent, they would cross over and explain all later.

However, if they were conducting surveillance, they would continue the follow without gaining permission, again, reporting later to the relevant division whose jurisdiction they entered.

Monty

[Hair Bear]

Thanks again for the info, Monty, rest assured it is much appreciated.

Your two questions are good ones. To answer them, and just playing devil's advocate...

Firstly: "So with that in mind, do you think Neil would risk murder?"

(a) I could turn that question around and say that "After killing Nichols and Chapman, with the police now literally flooding the area, do you think the killer would risk another Whitechapel murder?" Killers take risks, albeit a calculated one when it comes to the smart ones. Smart ones like, say, police officers.

(b) Having worked in security and been subjected to spot checks, it wasn't at all difficult, once you knew the ropes (and PC Neil would have been very well versed in police procedure), to know when, where and how to avoid your superiors. Moreover, for all we know, his sergeant may have turned up, then left, and then he, Neil, came across a drunk Nichols.

Secondly: "And how do you explain the other murders?"

Alas, I can't. Luckily for my ego, no one else can. It would, however, be interesting to know PC Neil's movements on those occasions. Not because I believe you will find the Ripper, but because surely it's common sense to eliminate someone with facts rather than mere speculation.

Ultimately, my PC Neil quest is more a case of being able to, as best we can, pinpoint where each relevant person was during the period of Nichols' murder, so that we can perhaps track the killer's route to and from the place of execution. For many years now I've wanted someone to come up with a visual map that plots moving people, and lo and behold this was provided in Holmgren's documentary. Unfortunately, though, it wasn't as encompassing as it could have been.

[David Orsam]

A few points from me:

1. Repeating posts is not terribly helpful in a discussion.

2. I don't think that Neil ever did mention Thomas Street in his evidence but the People of 2 September said: "The facts are that as Constable John Neil was walking down Buck's-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel, about a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he discovered a woman between 35 and 40 years of age lying at the side of the street dead." Buck's Row, Thomas Street, was just the way locations were stated in those days.

3. It seems to me that PC Neil's beat could not have avoided Baker's Row by accessing Buck's Row via Thomas Street. The reason for this is the evidence of Spratling that "Constable Neil was the only one whose duty it was to pass through Buck's-row" (Daily Telegraph 4 Sept). That being so, if Neil's beat did not encompass the whole of Buck's Row then there would have been no constable to patrol the western end of the row which cannot possibly have been allowed to happen. QED Neil's beat must have taken him up Baker's Row and down into Buck's Row.

4. I paste below the entirety of the J Division beat which includes "From Whitechapel-road by Baker's-row". This comes from the 1893 General Orders but was presumably the same in 1888.

5. In evidence at the inquest, PC Neil said: "The farthest I had been that night was just through the Whitechapel road and up Baker's row." (Evening Standard, 3 Sept).

6. If the distance from A back to A was 12 minutes then A to B was six minutes. It would have taken about 2 minutes to walk the entirety of Buck's Row so that Neil would only have had another 4 minutes on his beat. Seems a bit short but if, as Monty says, night beats were 15 minutes in the loop then the normal distance of a beat from A to B would only be 7.5 minutes so by no means implausible.

7. Spratling said that Neil "would have been "within sound" of this place in Buck's-row from time to time during the night - more or less during the whole of the night." (Echo 3 Sept) So that is consistent with him not being more than 4 minutes away, but perhaps also with never being more than 10 minutes away, especially if Neil's beat went up and down Whitechapel road in parallel to Buck's Row in which case the time walked would not necessarily mean an increase in distance from Buck's Row.

8. It's certainly possible and consistent with the above that Neil's loop only took 12 minutes (and that the 30 minutes he said it took him to complete can be legitimately explained) but for the reason stated by Monty earlier in this thread I don't see how, on the current state of knowledge, it is possible to entirely rule out the fact that Neil was doing a 30 minute beat.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Your attachment delineates the boundaries of J Division.

FYI, PC Neil's beat included Winthrop Street.

Regards,

Simon

[Hair Bear]

David: I've seriously got no idea how the repeat got there, except to say that as a newbie I'm not au fait with posting, or indeed computers. A million apologies! If anyone knows how I might delete it, do say.

Regarding Winthrope Street: That would make sense, Simon. As would, looking at the diagram in CAI: Whitechapel, the street that runs parallel with, and is to the right of, Court Street. (Can anyone direct me to a good map with the name of that street on?)

Regarding 15/30 min beats: Although The Times' (3rd Sept) statement suggests, to me, that Neil's beat was 15 mins ("The constable has been severely questioned as to his 'working' of his 'beat' on that night...quickly walked over would not occupy more than 12 minutes"), the following nugget from The Times (18 Sept) may alter the perspective. It says that PC Thain "passed the end of Buck's-row every thirty minutes". This tells us that Thain's beat was 30 mins, and if that's the case, it would make sense that PC Neil's was also 30 mins.

Moreover, this was before the legend of the Ripper surfaced, so there would arguably be less police officers on duty, and it would therefore make sense that they covered 30 minute beats, which probably fell to 15 minute (covered by two officers) once the hullabaloo began. All comments welcome.

[David Orsam]

Oh no worries then Hair Bear, I thought you were making a point by re-posting but that's cool.

Re. Winthrop Street, it certainly makes sense that this was part of Neil's beat given the proximity to Buck's Row but I'm scratching my head as to what the actual evidence is to support that claim. As far as I'm aware, only PC Thain said he ventured into Winthrop street - to collect his cape. According to the Times report, he sent it there "by a brother constable" but if that is supposed to be Neil he doesn't actually say so as far as I can recollect.

[Hair Bear]

Here's another one I'm not understanding: "[Neil] deposed that on Friday morning he was passing down Buck's-row...in the direction of Brady-street...He was walking along the right-hand side of the street when he noticed a figure...It was dark at the time, although a street lamp was shinning at the end of the row. He walked across and found the deceased..."

He "walked across" what? That makes it sound like he was on the other side of the road, but then he wouldn't be walking down the right side, heading in the direction of Brady Street. Obviously I've misread something, so any help would be great.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Patrick Mulshaw was a night watchman in Winthrop Street.

"During the night he saw two constables, including Constable Neil. He was unable to say at what time he saw that officer."

The Times, 18th September 1888.

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Echo, 21st September 1888—

"A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed. From this it will be seen that the murderer had no doubt a considerable time in which he was quite sure of being undisturbed by a police constable, assuming he knew the beats. It seems that, notwithstanding the frequent repetition of murders round Whitechapel, under circumstances leading to the conclusion that they were the work of one man, not one single extra police officer was put upon the ground until after the commission of the fourth and last murder. Then the streets were filled night and by by police in and out of uniform.

"During the month of August, and up to the 8th instant, when Annie Chapman was killed, the following beats were covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal green, these forming what is known as the "Second Section night duty." The first police constable would commence his two beats at Wilmot street, three Colt land, Cheshire street, Mape street, Bethnal green road, to Wilmot street, and the interior, this consisting of a few streets, courts, passages, &c. The second constable would cover Three Colt lane, Collingwood street, Darling row, Dog row, Whitechapel road, Brady street, to Three Colt lane, and the interior, this consisting of about twenty streets, courts, passages, &c; the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c. The fourth constable would commence at Baker's row, go through Nottingham street, White street, Bethnal Green road, Mape street, London street, to Baker's row, and all the interior, consisting of about thirty streets, courts, passages, &c. The fifth and last man of the section would cover Whitechapel road alone, this making a total of nine beats for the five constables. The third beat was the one within the limit of which Mrs. Nicholl (sic) was murdered. The exterior of the beats are at least a mile in extent, and to this distance must be added the interiors."

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Thanks for the reply. Most helpful.



Phil

[Monty]

Outstanding Simon,

Thank you for sharing.


No problem Phil.

Monty

[Hair Bear]

Simon! You legend! Brilliant!

[Hair Bear]

British guys: There's a Ripper doc on tonight, 9pm Channel 5.