PC Neil's Route

[Hair Bear]

Now that we know PC Neil's area, can anybody hazard a guess at what would be his logical looped route, street by street?

[The Station Cat]

Now that we know PC Neil's area, can anybody hazard a guess at what would be his logical looped route, street by street?

It would also be interesting to know, how many other beats there were and how many other bobbies from Bethnal Green station were on those beats/duties at any one time?

[Rosella]

I believe Monty mentions, earlier in this thread, that the beat book for J Division in 1888-89 hasn't survived (probably nicked) something he discovered when researching his book, so sadly that is something we aren't likely to ever know.

[Joshua Rogan]

Using the beat route info unearthed by Simon, Google maps estimates 14 minutes to walk the approx 3/4 mile loop, which equates to about the 3mph pace which Monty said was used on night beats, and also the 'no more than 12 minutes' claimed if walked quickly.
The other streets to cover that I can see include 4 through-routes which connect from Whitechapel Road to Buck's Row or Winthrop Street (about 70-80 metres each), Winthrop Street itself and also White's Row (the western end of Buck's Row). These add in total about 6-700 yards (7minutes) if walked in one direction, twice that if Neil walked up one side and back down the other.

I don't know if that helps at all.

[The Station Cat]

I believe Monty mentions, earlier in this thread, that the beat book for J Division in 1888-89 hasn't survived (probably nicked) something he discovered when researching his book, so sadly that is something we aren't likely to ever know.

How disappointing. Sadly further to this, that appears to be the case with lots of the Ripper related documents as well, how on earth this could have been allowed to happen over the years is anyone's guess and certainly outrageous!!!!!! Interestingly I'm not aware of any of them coming up for auction or anything like that, but I'm sure someone has got them somewhere........

[The Station Cat]

I believe Monty mentions, earlier in this thread, that the beat book for J Division in 1888-89 hasn't survived (probably nicked) something he discovered when researching his book, so sadly that is something we aren't likely to ever know.

I wonder is it possible working from other Divisions perhaps whether it's possible to ascertain just how many Officers would have been on duty during a night shift in Bethnal Green in 1888 (prior to the surge of officers).

[Rosella]

This is from the Press reports here in Casebook. Top report.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/echo/18880921.html?printer=true

[Monty]

Just to expand on sections.

Each subdivision (Stations) has a small area to patrol. This area is divided yet again into sections. Theses section are split down even more into beats.

The section sergeants are responsible for the beat officers for that section, which are around 10-12 in number. These beat men are rotated throughout the year.

Beats are 30 minutes in the day, when 1/3 of beat constables are on duty. During the night, these beats are broken in to two, and covered in 15 minutes, when 2/3 of the beat constables are on duty.

The reason is simple, most crime is committed at night under the cover of darkness.

Monty

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Monty. Interesting that the night beats were only 15 minutes long, rather than 30. But Neil himself says, or implies, that his beat took 30 mins. So could it be that, rather than two policemen doing half the beat each, they would both walk the whole beat but in opposite directions, or starting at opposite ends?

[GUT]

Thanks Monty. Interesting that the night beats were only 15 minutes long, rather than 30. But Neil himself says, or implies, that his beat took 30 mins. So could it be that, rather than two policemen doing half the beat each, they would both walk the whole beat but in opposite directions, or starting at opposite ends?

I thought the norm was for two of them to do the route in opposite directions, but would bow to Monty if he says otherwise.

My info came from an ex Bobby, but much later than 1888.

[Rosella]

return to normal view
Echo
London, U.K.
21 September 1888

EAST END MURDERS
THE POLICEMEN'S NIGHT BEATS
THE PRESENT PRECAUTIONS
A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed. From this it will be seen that the murderer had no doubt a considerable time in which he was quite sure of being undisturbed by a police constable, assuming he knew the beats. It seems that, notwithstanding the frequent repetition of murders round Whitechapel, under circumstances leading to the conclusion that they were the work of one man, not one single extra police officer was put upon the ground until after the commission of the fourth and last murder. Then the streets were filled night and by by police in and out of uniform.

During the month of August, and up to the 8th instant, when Annie Chapman was killed, the following beats were covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal green, these forming what is known as the "Second Section night duty." The first police constable would commence his two beats at Wilmot street, three Colt land, Cheshire street, Mape street, Bethnal green road, to Wilmot street, and the interior, this consisting of a few streets, courts, passages, &c. The second constable would cover Three Colt lane, Collingwood street, Darling row, Dog row, Whitechapel road, Brady street, to Three Colt lane, and the interior, this consisting of about twenty streets, courts, passages, &c; the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c. The fourth constable would commence at Baker's row, go through Nottingham street, White street, Bethnal Green road, Mape street, London street, to Baker's row, and all the interior, consisting of about thirty streets, courts, passages, &c. The fifth and last man of the section would cover Whitechapel road alone, this making a total of nine beats for the five constables. The third beat was the one within the limit of which Mrs. Nicholl (sic) was murdered. The exterior of the beats are at least a mile in extent, and to this distance must be added the interiors.

[Monty]

The beats were all measured to be as near to 30 minutes long as possible, for every constable.

The beats, at night, would be covered by two constables who would take 15 minutes each. How they worked it would be up to the Section Sergeants. Suffice to say they had to be equal.

Attached is what was Mizens beat area. The red line shows part of the beat route. Note the doubling back and forth.

For me Neil would have entered Winthrop Street from Brady Street, walked down as far as the board school, and returned to Brady Street, taking in the alleys and passages on the way. However, whether he did this as a constant would be up to him, pending other events and tea breaks.

Monty

[FrankO]

...the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c.

Great find, Rosella, thanks for sharing it!

It explains why Neil and the 2 carmen didn’t see each other:
PC Neil was very likely somewhere on the green stretch as indicated on the map below, while the 2 men were passing Thomas Street in Buck’s Row (blue line). And when the 2 men turned right at the corner of Buck’s Row/Baker’s Row, Neil had already entered Thomas Street or was at least quite close to doing so.

For the timings to fit, Neil must have been close to the north east corner of Thomas Street when the 2 men were passing it on Buck’s Row. Otherwise, PC Mizen would arrive so shortly after Neil at the crime spot that there was no time for Thain to come and go. Unless, of course, the conversation with Cross and Paul lasted a couple of minutes or Mizen walked very slowly.
The yellow line is Neil’s beat.

All the best,
Frank

[The Station Cat]

Great find, Rosella, thanks for sharing it!

It explains why Neil and the 2 carmen didn’t see each other:
PC Neil was very likely somewhere on the green stretch as indicated on the map below, while the 2 men were passing Thomas Street in Buck’s Row (blue line). And when the 2 men turned right at the corner of Buck’s Row/Baker’s Row, Neil had already entered Thomas Street or was at least quite close to doing so.

For the timings to fit, Neil must have been close to the north east corner of Thomas Street when the 2 men were passing it on Buck’s Row. Otherwise, PC Mizen would arrive so shortly after Neil at the crime spot that there was no time for Thain to come and go. Unless, of course, the conversation with Cross and Paul lasted a couple of minutes or Mizen walked very slowly.
The yellow line is Neil’s beat.

All the best,
Frank

That is great, Frank. So much easier to get ones head round who was were and just how easy it was for them to miss each other, when you have a map to look at. I assume the yellow lines are PC Neil's beat. If so would be interested to know where this information came from and are there any other beats available?

[Joshua Rogan]

Nice one FrankO for the map. I did knock up something similar but was unable to post it.
The basic beat route is outlined in the article posted by Rosella (and Simon a year ago), but the actual route Neil took is open to speculation, given all the side roads, courts and alleys. That route looks perfectly feasible, but do you think Neil could even have been in Queen Ann Street when the carmen went to find Mizen?

If Neil was in Winthrop Street, Buck's Row, Thomas St and as far away as Whitechapel Road and Bakers Row, it looks to me as if he was walking the full beat, or the majority at least, rather than a half beat. Yes?