Seaside Home?

[Cogidubnus]

For all I know, someone may well have already come across this, but as we all know the Swanson Marginalia reads:-

Continuing from Page 138, after the subject had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty etc

Hardly an original thought, but why does it have to be the police convalescent home, or a jewish convalescent home, or any other sort of convalescent home for that matter? (And why should Hove be so difficult to get to? It was on main coaching roads and a main railway line for goodness sake).

Lots of wealthy families had seaside homes...the MacNaghten family had a long relationship with Ovingdean, East Sussex where Sir MMs father had a home at Ovingdean Hall from c1858 until his death in 1888; I assume the lease expired on or shortly after his death because the Hall was subsequently relet and became a school from 1891.

Moreover, whilst reading a Kipling biography I came across a reference to Christabel MacNaghten (later Lady Aberconway) walking across from Ovingdean to Rottingdean to visit the Kiplings c 1899 (she'd have been about 9 at the time I think). Kipling subsequently wrote a poem inspired by this visit. The Kipling's didn't even move to Rottingdean until 1897 so the lateness of the date is confirmed....It appears that Christabels uncle was the "Squire of Ovingdean" and lived in Ovingdean Grange.

Could either of these addresses be the family's Seaside Home...our Seaside Home?

Ovingdean, a few miles east of Brighton, with poor roads and no nearby railway, might well have been a bit trickier to get to than Hove...just a thought...

Dave

[lynn cates]

Sadler

Hello Dave. You might have a go at "Scotland Yard Investigates." The conjecture there seems to involve the Seaman's home--not the Seaside Home, and Sadler's lack of identification by Lewende. Mix that with the "positive ID" of Grainger--all of which happened not too far from the incarceration of the harmless lunatic Kosminski--and you MAY just have a good story.

All of which would be in keeping with the demonstrated memory of Sir Robert.

I think that there may also be a dissertation on this.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Yes I saw the theory about the Seamen's/Seaside transposition...of course it's possible...maybe more probable than dragging suspect and witness 6o miles cross-country (presumably in the interests of discretion - which by the time things had cooled a little in July 1890 could be achieved far more easily and closer to home anyway!).

But if it is someone's Seaside Home somewhere, then we're in keeping with Swanson too...

Regards
Dave

[lynn cates]

recall

Hello Dave. Well, IF Swanson wrote that, perhaps he was trying to recall Sir Robert's words, but was as mystified as all the rest of us?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I've often wondered if Maybrick had a home at the seaside.

What a pity "Swanson" didn't find time to annotate the diary.

Regards,

Simon

[curious]

Hi Lynn

Yes I saw the theory about the Seamen's/Seaside transposition...of course it's possible...maybe more probable than dragging suspect and witness 6o miles cross-country (presumably in the interests of discretion - which by the time things had cooled a little in July 1890 could be achieved far more easily and closer to home anyway!).

But if it is someone's Seaside Home somewhere, then we're in keeping with Swanson too...

Regards
Dave

Hi,
I have a problem believing someone's personal getaway (and so far out of the way) would be used in this manner.

[lynn cates]

2

Hello Velma. Well, that makes two of us.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

I know...It's the whole distance thing that makes me doubtful of Hove, Brighton or indeed Ovingdean...did you know the Mile End Workhouse had a Seaside Home in Herne Bay? Shame it was for convalescent children...and, therefore, would only really work if the witness was working there....

In fact, IF Swanson wrote the marginalia, and IF he got it right, the only way this works is if the WITNESS was stuck (either by employment or residence) in a home of some description...otherwise why not confront the suspect with the witness in some discreet office in the workhouse itself...it's not as if they're short of a room or two...

Dave

[Jeff Leahy]

In fact, IF Swanson wrote the marginalia,
Dave

All rational evidence points to the fact that Swanson indeed wrote the Marginalia, only the odd crack pot thinks otherwise.

Yours Jeff

[Phil Carter]

In fact, IF Swanson wrote the marginalia, and IF he got it right, the only way this works is if the WITNESS was stuck (either by employment or residence) in a home of some description...otherwise why not confront the suspect with the witness in some discreet office in the workhouse itself...it's not as if they're short of a room or two...

Dave

Hello Dave,

The marginalia specifically states that the suspect, was brought to the witness.
Now unless the witness is so housebound, at death's door or totally unable to move or be moved in any way, I personally think it would be highly unusual, if not unique, for the suspect to be transported from the locked up and secure asylum all that way to be identified by the witness.
The suspect's crime must be MEGA important, for it to be risked, and the chances of a positive ID would have been thoroughly weighed up by officials at all levels before any such action was set in motion. Even then, the manpower needed to secure the safe transportation of the suspect, supposedly so violent, would have been a major operation involving at least one Doctor from the asylum, x amount of helpers and or policemen, and x amount of both for a return journey.

Indications of any of the above are non-existant from asylum records, police records, Home Office Records or ANY official papers. Now either by sheer co-incidence they all got lost, or this was so much of a 'hot potato' all records were destroyed. All for the sake of a poor insane man who had no record of violence of the nature of the Whitechapel Murderer either at the time or whilst locked up. Straigtforward logic on the statistical and logistical problems and of the non-recording of the event at any level, ever, in any official way leads to one obvious conclusion. It never happened. Where does that leave the veracity of the annotations? Basically worthless. There isnt a single jot of proof that it happened. Whoevere wrote it. Whenever it was written.

Aaron Kosminsky should have been left to rest in peace years ago. But you can bet your backside some will carry on milking it for all it is worth as long as they think they can get away with it to keep the Magic Roundabout turning. Cue the organ grinder and his monkey. Roll-up! Roll-up! Come see the 8th wonder of the world. The ultimate freak show- without evidence nor confirmed presence of the freak. The saddest thing is that people are still willing to pay to buy into this unproven story. Cue the organ grinder and the monkey. They play SUCH a pretty tune! Roll up! Roll up!

Kindly

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

As I said the odd crack pot. If anyone would like to supply some factual or tangible evidence that the marginalia is anything other than genuine then I'd be most interested in something other than hot air Yours Jeff

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Phil

Per Jeff you must be the obligatory "odd crackpot"...

I see where you're coming from...

However, the marginalia does imply that the suspect was transported not from a locked and secure asylum, but from either a workhouse or his brother's care, and was returned to the care of his brother...therefore, assuming Kosminski, 1890 is indicated rather than 1891...

Staff required? Minimum two, maximum three...one bound too each wrist, the third to supervise...(and smack over the head if required)...Not difficult in itself...

Lack of asylum records? He isn't there yet...he's in the workhouse or at large...assuming it's Kosminski it's only 1890, and the events of 1891 are round the corner yet...There wouldn't be any Home Office records either...there are no charges, so it's informal so far...police records - well you do know what happened to them...

So as far as I'm concerned the jury's still out as regards Aaron...I can't yet absolve him (as it appears you can)...

[Jeff Leahy]

I'm not absolbing anyone. Just pointing out that the Marginalia has an impecable provenance and has been studied by two home office experts both of whom say it was probably written by Swanson.

If people dont like what it says thats understandable, but despite being a strange tale..its the one we have

Yours Jeff

[Cogidubnus]

Nor can I so easily dismiss the marginalia...I've an open mind on the subject...I can see how their creation could've either suited or not suited the Swanson family...yet in the great scheme of things, how has this benefited them? What motive (mischief apart) does anyone think exists to create a forgery?

[Cogidubnus]

Whoops...because I was so slow, we crossed...