Seaside Home?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dave.

Ok- take it a step further.
No record on Kosminsky's asylum records that refer to him being a SO dangerous indivdual that he was thought responsible for one murder- let alone 5!
the Home Office would have recorded any POSITIVE ID if he was ID'D forany one of the 5 murders- it goes without saying that if JTR was found they have no earthly reason to hide the fact- they would be resting on their laurels telling the world what a crack police force they had in detecting and catching the Ripper- so why would Abberline say in 1903 that thex were no wiser 15 years later ar to the identity of the killer- the man in charge of the investigation- and they didnt tdll him? Not believable. Didnt tell Reid either? Not believable.
Why would they NOT tell there two cential people? Or is the suggestion to bn taken that thex knew and for some obscure reason were told to not tell the world? For the sake of one poor nobody? No. Illogical without reason.

We 'crackpots' await any tangible evidence linking the annotations to the OFFICIAL POLICE OR HOME OFFICE PAPERS. Untik then they are just unofficial scribble of a person without proof to back them up. That is why the annotations are worthless. The original suggestion war that the ID took place in a Seaside Home affiliated to the police. What was a non policeman doing recuperating there of all places? I also believe that according to the census there were women and children present? If so- pretty fine place to bring such a dangerous woman killing maniac.

All way too doubtful. Not a jot of proof.
Cue the organ grinder and the monkey.

Kindly

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Can we just forget the 'Life on Mars' dangerous violent maniac image of the ripper held by the elder sates men of our community. Obviously I dont include you in that phil.

There is no evidence that people suffering schizophrenia, once through a short cycle known as psychotic episode, need be, or ever need be violent. Schizophenics once removed from the environment that may cause psychotic illness are by and large completely harmless. As per Peter Sutcliff.

Thus there is no reason why Jack the Ripper need be a raging maniac once placed in an asylum. As we learn more about such illness Anderson's bizarre harmless suspect appears more credible with the passing of each day.

YOurs Jeff

[lynn cates]

violence and schizophrenia

Hello Jeff. You are quite right about schizophrenia and violence. I researched this for my lad and there is NO connection between schizophrenia and violence. The only indicator of violence in schizophrenia is a history of violence.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Lynn

Yep schizophrenics are far more likely to hurt themselves than others, and are no more likely than other people in society to commit violent crime. ie their perpensity towards violence is the same as everybody elses.

Where schizophrenics can become dangerous is during a phaze known as psychotic episode usually a cycle lasting around 18 weeks. (incidently about the same length of time as the autumn of Terror) However these psychotic episodes are normally triggered by external influences, drugs, alcohol, chemicals.

Today schizophrenia is often placed into specific catagories, Paraniod, Catatonic and hebophrenic although I'm not convinced that they are not 'Shades ' of the same spectrum. All these types can experience Psychotic episodes and its then that violence might occur.

Peter Sutcliff if he is schizophrenic probably fits into the Paranoid catigory, he has also been heavily drugged with modern medication so whether he can be compared to Aaron? who was not..

The problem is that as Chris George recently pointed out the Ripper crimes are so rare that there is almost no equivilent. So we are dealing with an almost unique occurance in which certain conditions developed at a point in history where this type of serial killer was able to develop.

Aaron was probably suffering the form of schizophrenia sometimes refered to as hebophrenic or disorganized schizophrenia. His asylum records are fairly consistent with someone slowly being consumed into themselves. A harmless state known as burn out..very sad.

The question however is Aaron's mental condition in 1888 when the illness first started to develop. What was his condition like in those early psychotic stages if he did indeed experience them? Going through cycles is common, and we know Aaron was able to appear in court. Interestingly Cox refers to a suspect that from 'time to time' became insane.

I for one find it interesting that Anderson chooses an apparently harmless lunatic to point the finger at and I hold to the theory that he received a letter of introduction to Matilda Kosminski. Hence help from one member of the family but not the rest. But that is pure speculation on my part.

The Seaside home story is indeed odd. However I don't see the need to jump through crazy hoops just because the tale is somewhat unusual. There is no evidence that Swanson or Anderson had any reason to lie or make something up.

Anyway nice to speak with you again

Yours Jeff

[Observer]

Nor can I so easily dismiss the marginalia...I've an open mind on the subject...I can see how their creation could've either suited or not suited the Swanson family...yet in the great scheme of things, how has this benefited them? What motive (mischief apart) does anyone think exists to create a forgery?

Hi Mac

No motive whatsoever, the marginalia is quite genuine.

[lynn cates]

addendum

Hello Jeff. Thanks. I agree with the vast majority of what you say about schizophrenia. And, yes, IF a schizophrenic is to be violent, of course it will occur within a very narrow time frame which often coincides with a highly delusional period.

And during this period one of two things must happen for violence to occur:

1. the schizophrenic must be used to violence, ie, have a history of that.

or

2. feel threatened.

Regarding #2, I read a humourous story (not humourous to those involved) in which a schizophrenic man assaulted a woman walking behind him. His reason? "She had a laser beam focused on my testicles, trying to make me sterile."

If I were a Kosminski researcher I daresay I'd focus on something like:

1. A devout, Orthodox Jew.

2. Who was fearful of losing his virginity.

3. And who felt threatened by "unfortunates" who were "trying to seduce" him.

Merely some thoughts.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Ah there bye hangs much speculation and we will probably never know. All we have are possibility and probability.

Its always been my belief that Anderson witnessed Aaron masturbating (possibly at the seaside home) hence his revoltion of the man.

Interestingly compulsive masturbation or high sex drive are not common syptoms of schizophrenia, although inappropriate behaviour can be a behaviour pattern..

But I doubt if his high sex drive continued as his illness progressed. It is not mentioned. Not that his asylum records are much more than comment on his physical health.

Yours Jeff

[jason_c]

Ive often thought that the Seaside Home may have been an unofficial Police seaside home. Brighton had been known for its healthy "healing" powers for some time. Before an official home was used there may have been the casual use of a property or business for convalescing.

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello Jeff. Agreed again. There seem to be periods of lethargy/depression AND mania involved in some schizophrenic episodes. And so libido would be low.

You are also likely correct that Kosminski's "recreational habits" prompted some to suspect him and feel revulsion.

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

Hello Dave.

Ok- take it a step further.
No record on Kosminsky's asylum records that refer to him being a SO dangerous indivdual that he was thought responsible for one murder- let alone 5!
the Home Office would have recorded any POSITIVE ID if he was ID'D forany one of the 5 murders- it goes without saying that if JTR was found they have no earthly reason to hide the fact- they would be resting on their laurels telling the world what a crack police force they had in detecting and catching the Ripper- so why would Abberline say in 1903 that thex were no wiser 15 years later ar to the identity of the killer- the man in charge of the investigation- and they didnt tdll him? Not believable. Didnt tell Reid either? Not believable.
Why would they NOT tell there two cential people? Or is the suggestion to bn taken that thex knew and for some obscure reason were told to not tell the world? For the sake of one poor nobody? No. Illogical without reason.

We 'crackpots' await any tangible evidence linking the annotations to the OFFICIAL POLICE OR HOME OFFICE PAPERS. Untik then they are just unofficial scribble of a person without proof to back them up. That is why the annotations are worthless. The original suggestion war that the ID took place in a Seaside Home affiliated to the police. What was a non policeman doing recuperating there of all places? I also believe that according to the census there were women and children present? If so- pretty fine place to bring such a dangerous woman killing maniac.

All way too doubtful. Not a jot of proof.
Cue the organ grinder and the monkey.

Kindly

Phil

Phil,

There is no proof that JtR was dangerous to anyone but prostitutes. A suspect handcuffed and surrounded by policemen would have posed little danger to anyone. Only in todays health & safety culture would it be deemed unsafe. Without the suspect having a sharp knife at hand the main danger to residents would be a lightning attack of public masturbation rather than killing and maiming.

[curious]

For all I know, someone may well have already come across this, but as we all know the Swanson Marginalia reads:-

Continuing from Page 138, after the subject had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty etc

Hardly an original thought, but why does it have to be the police convalescent home, or a jewish convalescent home, or any other sort of convalescent home for that matter? (And why should Hove be so difficult to get to? It was on main coaching roads and a main railway line for goodness sake).

Lots of wealthy families had seaside homes...the MacNaghten family had a long relationship with Ovingdean, East Sussex where Sir MMs father had a home at Ovingdean Hall from c1858 until his death in 1888; I assume the lease expired on or shortly after his death because the Hall was subsequently relet and became a school from 1891.

Moreover, whilst reading a Kipling biography I came across a reference to Christabel MacNaghten (later Lady Aberconway) walking across from Ovingdean to Rottingdean to visit the Kiplings c 1899 (she'd have been about 9 at the time I think). Kipling subsequently wrote a poem inspired by this visit. The Kipling's didn't even move to Rottingdean until 1897 so the lateness of the date is confirmed....It appears that Christabels uncle was the "Squire of Ovingdean" and lived in Ovingdean Grange.

Could either of these addresses be the family's Seaside Home...our Seaside Home?

Ovingdean, a few miles east of Brighton, with poor roads and no nearby railway, might well have been a bit trickier to get to than Hove...just a thought...

Dave

Hi, Dave,
Phil Carter's post has "enlightened" me with another thought. If indeed the witness were completely incapacitated and unable to be moved and with crimes of this importance, I suppose the authorities might have moved mountains in order to try to get an identification while there was still time.

while they would know the identification would not hold up in court, the authorities could take other measures to keep a dangerous man under watch.

So, maybe . . .

[Phil Carter]

Phil,

There is no proof that JtR was dangerous to anyone but prostitutes. A suspect handcuffed and surrounded by policemen would have posed little danger to anyone. Only in todays health & safety culture would it be deemed unsafe. Without the suspect having a sharp knife at hand the main danger to residents would be a lightning attack of public masturbation rather than killing and maiming.

Hello Jason,

There is just no reason why this obscure man who, if as stated, was POSITIVELY identified as being a murderer involved in the autumn of terror, would not be known as THE killer to two very central officers, Abberline and Reid. There would be no reason for either to not be told. There is no reason to withold the information 15-20-25 or even 50 years later either. This is a poor, insane nobody.

There is a lot of comment as to whether Anderson lied. Some say he didnt. Ok, if the scribble in the marginalia is the truth- then do we assume Abberline lied? And Reid?

I have said it before and I will say it again. There is not a jot of official evidence to back up these annotations. People milk it for all it is worth. And they are fully aware of doing it. It keeps the Magic Roundabout turning. Cue the organ grinder and the monkey.

The Seaside Home scenario has more holes in it than a fishing net. Supposition supporting an UNAMED place- holding a UNRECORDED meeting between unsubstansiated persons without any recorded date, in a fashion totally opposite to normal identification procedure (suspect taken to witness) with no full name of suspect, no name of policemen involved and all this done, apparently so clandestine that not ONE official record- either locally or nationally, via newspapers , locally or nationally or internationally ever recorded this major breakthrough, ever.
The Home Office would have been informed and there would have been letters galore between the police and the Home Office for goodness sake! Why? They had a positive ID on Jack the Ripper!

The only conclusion must be that it is not reliable. Who wrote it doesnt matter.

Kindly

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Bob Dylan guesting?

Hi Mac

No motive whatsoever, the marginalia is quite genuine.

Sorry Observer, but who's this Mac?

Dave

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jason,

There is just no reason why this obscure man who, if as stated, was POSITIVELY identified as being a murderer involved in the autumn of terror, would not be known as THE killer to two very central officers, Abberline and Reid. There would be no reason for either to not be told. There is no reason to withold the information 15-20-25 or even 50 years later either. This is a poor, insane nobody.

l

Actually there are an almost infinate number of possibilities why Abberline and Reid might not have known of the suggested ID by Swanson.

The most obvious of which is that Matilda approached Anderson (for which we have some evidence) and that Anderson asked Swanson to arrange the ID based on what she told him. Anderson being a man of his word would not have betrayed Matildas confidence..But that is specualation

And as I say there are an almost infinate number of posibilities or speculations that dont include some silly consiracy, a police cover up or the Royal family

YOurs Jeff

[Cogidubnus]

The Seaside Home scenario has more holes in it than a fishing net. Supposition supporting an UNAMED place- holding a UNRECORDED meeting between unsubstansiated persons without any recorded date, in a fashion totally opposite to normal identification procedure (suspect taken to witness) with no full name of suspect, no name of policemen involved and all this done, apparently so clandestine that not ONE official record- either locally or nationally, via newspapers , locally or nationally or internationally ever recorded this major breakthrough, ever.

Hi Phil...I too have had doubts, but on differing grounds...those of distance (unless as has been suggested the witness was for some reason unable to be shifted)...I suspect clandestine arrangements might well have been made purely to prevent the newspapers finding out (they weren't exactly behaving as the Met's best friend were they?)...but 50 to 60 miles away from London seems a long way to go with a suspect...

The marginalia seem to be widely believed in (and I don't really go with the Magic Roundabout perpetuity thing because, after all, what was there to be gained by faking either them or the guy's other annotations)...ok there we probably differ...

There was no positive ID...the witness refused to confirm...and that's why the Home Office were never advised it had taken place...

So (genuinely) where does that leave us Phil?

All the best
Dave