Suppose a City PC did see something near Mitre Square

[Monty]

Hi FM.

Hard to say, isn't it.

The wide entrance between Mitre Street and Mitre Sq. 'could' loosely be described as a court, and Watkins would have entered through there. Also possible is that the writer was referring to St. James Place, alternately, it may be just an inaccurate choice of words by the reporter.

Sugar Bakers Yard

Monty

[Wickerman]

Jon, what's your opinion of: "the court near the square"? Does this make sense in the context of Watkins's beat?

Hi FM.

Hard to say, isn't it.

The wide entrance between Mitre Street and Mitre Sq. 'could' loosely be described as a court, and Watkins would have entered through there. Also possible is that the writer was referring to St. James Place, alternately, it may be just an inaccurate choice of words by the reporter.

[Monty]

Sorry,

Why would there be a need to keep it quiet?

Monty

[lynn cates]

simplest explanation

Hello Damaso.

"The more police memoirs I read, the less I know about this case."

Quite. And what is the simplest explanation for this?

Cheers.
LC

[Tecs]

Dear all,

Don Rumbelow speculated that, and bear in mind he was an ex city PC himself, Watkins was in fact drinking tea with the ex PC security guard at K+T's. This was almost confirmed when the Stephen White story came to light in which, if I remember correctly, it says that a PC came out of the room he had been in and discovered the body. Or words to that effect, haven't got my stuff with me!

If true, we can see why the Police may need to keep this info quiet. If the public found out that the Ripper was given a helping hand by beat officers scrimping on their rounds, there would be uproar. Presumably, most PC's had done so at one time or another so within the force Watkins may have been forgiven.

On the other hand, unless I've missed something if you take away Swanson's reference to the witness being Jewish, there is nothing to believe that it could be Watkins is there?

It would be easy for the Police to keep quiet that he had actually seen the killer. Only a handful need know and a strictly verbal basis would mean no written records?

regards,

[Damaso Marte]

It would make perfect sense that Watkins was the witness here...but what of Anderson's belief that the eyewitness didn't want to testify against a fellow Jew? Watkins does not sound like a Jewish last name to me, to say the least.

The more police memoirs I read, the less I know about this case.

[Fleetwood Mac]

As is often the case, there is nothing certain about Sagar's words. There are three versions available..

- "..a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court."
The Morning Leader, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square,"
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court"
Seattle Daily Times, 4 Feb. 1905



The Daily News added: "...and a few moments after fell over the body."
Whereas, in the Seattle Daily times we read: "...Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body."

Watkins is the only PC we know of who stumbled across the body.

Jon, what's your opinion of: "the court near the square"? Does this make sense in the context of Watkins's beat?

[Wickerman]

The interesting thing from the Sagar quote is: "well known man of Jewish appearance". Could be reading too much into this, but if he's a well known man then wouldn't they have known whether or not he was Jewish, and would it not have been: "well known Jewish man"?

As is often the case, there is nothing certain about Sagar's words. There are three versions available..

- "..a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court."
The Morning Leader, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square,"
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court"
Seattle Daily Times, 4 Feb. 1905

Personally, I think it did happen and it wasn't Harvey or Watkins.

The Daily News added: "...and a few moments after fell over the body."
Whereas, in the Seattle Daily times we read: "...Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body."

Watkins is the only PC we know of who stumbled across the body.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Suppose the reference to "a city PC near Mitre Square" was not in fact a reference to Lawende, but that, say, an actual city PC saw somebody leaving Mitre Square in a suspicious manner shortly before the body was discovered. Obviously, no record of such a sighting exists in the materials we're familiar with.

How in line with 1888 standards and norms for police work would it have been for nothing to have been made public, not revealed at the inquest, etc? I know that today, police forces frequently do not reveal the full details of murders, in part to determine the veracity of any confessions that might be made.

It's a reasonable proposition.

We know that detectives in plain clothes were patrolling the border of City and Met territory.

Interesting that Halse ran off in a certain direction, and it turns out that he was right to run off in that direction as the apron was found on that route.

The interesting thing from the Sagar quote is: "well known man of Jewish appearance". Could be reading too much into this, but if he's a well known man then wouldn't they have known whether or not he was Jewish, and would it not have been: "well known Jewish man"?

Perhaps he looked Jewish but wasn't.

Seems there is more than source of the 'City PC' sighting.

Personally, I think it did happen and it wasn't Harvey or Watkins.

Not sure what people's thoughts are on the: "out of the court near the square" comment. Could this mean it wasn't actually coming out of one of three allies but somewhere nearby?

[Beowulf]

My new theory: there was a communicable disease in 1888 London, causing late in life confusion of memories, and the police officials who investigated the Ripper murders all got it from each other.

Wow. There is that same disease making a resurgence on Long Island out by Gilgo beach

[lynn cates]

communicable disease

Hello Damaso.

"there was a communicable disease in 1888 London, causing late in life confusion of memories, and the police officials who investigated the Ripper murders all got it from each other."

Hoof and mouth disease, perhaps? When one opened his mouth, he put his hoof in it. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

suspicious

Hello Phil.

"might not the robbery also explain some of the men seen acting in a suspicious or surreptitious way at that time"

Which men are these?

Cheers.
LC

[Damaso Marte]

My new theory: there was a communicable disease in 1888 London, causing late in life confusion of memories, and the police officials who investigated the Ripper murders all got it from each other.

[pinkmoon]

Valid point Phil if this incident did actually happen then surely police would have issued this description of suspect to general public after all they wouldn't have to say how they came across it

[Phil H]

let's face it that description is so much like druitts

And probably thousands of other young middle class gentlemen in London in the 1880s.

Sorry but I had to say that!

Phil