Suppose a City PC did see something near Mitre Square

[lynn cates]

dismissal

Hello Stewart. Had Watkins seen someone exit Mitre sq, and had not testified to that effect at inquest, would that not have been grounds for immediate dismissal?

But he was not dismissed. Therefore, it seems that he did not come forward with a sighting after the fact.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

other direction

Hello Damaso.

"Watkins approached the square from the north, right?"

Not if he came in through Mitre st, as he said.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

It's not a 'half-remembered rumor'.

Macnaghaten had written a second version of his 'Report' in which a PC sees maybe 'Kosminski' with Eddowes. Major Griffiths utilized this in his account in 'Mysteries of Police and Crime' (1898).

It certainly beefed up that suspect; that he might have been seen with a victim. And it placed this suspect, by implication, inside the 1888 police investigation (as opposed to only being learned about after he was sectioned over two years later).

And then the toothpaste was somewhat awkwardly squeezed back into the tube.

In 1907, Sims writes that the policeman saw a figure who might have been the Polish suspect leaving the scene of the crime, rather than speaking to the victim. Later the Bobbie looked again at this suspect (wow!) and thought there was some features of outline which matched but nothing stronger.

By 1914, Macnaghten totally downgrades the cop sighting--who is reportedly the only significant witness--as maybe, possibly, probably not seeing Jack; it was unsatisfying.

Take that, Anderson!

[Lechmere]

An enticing half remembered rumour will be half way around the world before the truth has put its size elevens on.

[pinkmoon]

This topic has always been good for an endless stream of fanciful speculation.

It seems that the simplest answers are always the hardest to accept. And we have seen this discussion revived many times over the years. But there are the usual caveats to bear in mind.

1. From the official records it is obvious that there was no unknown 'City PC' witness on the night of the Mitre Square murder.

2. The Stephen White press story (as to seeing a suspect leave a murder scene) is almost certainly apocryphal.

3. This is a careless recycling of various second-hand stories over the years with no official record to support it.

The simplest answers are never the most exciting it is what it is a story

[Stewart P Evans]

'City PC Story'

This topic has always been good for an endless stream of fanciful speculation.

It seems that the simplest answers are always the hardest to accept. And we have seen this discussion revived many times over the years. But there are the usual caveats to bear in mind.

1. From the official records it is obvious that there was no unknown 'City PC' witness on the night of the Mitre Square murder.

2. The Stephen White press story (as to seeing a suspect leave a murder scene) is almost certainly apocryphal.

3. This is a careless recycling of various second-hand stories over the years with no official record to support it.

[Damaso Marte]

Watkins approached the square from the north, right? I guess if these accounts are accurate, we know how the killer got to Ghoulston street.

[Jonathan H]

Griffiths had this bit from the alternate version of Mac's 'memo' in 1898.

But I don't mean Sagar.

I mean Anderson, Swanson, and the tales concocted about White.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jonathan.

Sims wrote that 2 years after Sagar.

[Jonathan H]

This is pertinent I think: Sims--1907:

'One man only, a policeman, saw him leaving the place in which he had just accomplished a fiendish deed, but failed, owing to the darkness, to get a good view of him. A little later the policeman stumbled over the lifeless body of the victim.'

...

'The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder.'


I would suggest that this is the origin of much of the later claims of police seeing Jack, or seeing him as he left a victim, or of a witness failing to affirm--in several different accounts.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The following is from the Casebook 'Mitre Square' wiki entry:

"The square became known as Duke's Place by 1676[1]and was also the site of St. James' church. South of this was the Mitre Tavern and Mitre Court (later Mitre Street) and to the north, a narrow passage known as 'Dark Entry' (later Church Passage). The earliest appearence of the name Mitre Square seems to be in 1830[2] . St James's church was demolished in 1874."

The reference to "the court near the square" could presumably be a reference to Mitre Street? That would fit with the approach of Watkin.

Was Mitre Street a court to all intents and purposes? I always thought of a court as an arched passageway, but looking it up on the internet it appears it's another term for a cul-de-sac.

[crberger]

- "..a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court."
The Morning Leader, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square,"
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court"
Seattle Daily Times, 4 Feb. 1905

What if this is a man of foreign origins, but not Jewish and well-known for other reasons.
I am thinking about a new conspiracy: it involves well-dressed foreigners and something, something, maybe Czarist and Prussian diplomats.

[Bridewell]

"City PC"

There is an earlier thread on this topic which may be of interest:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6729

[Bridewell]

Don Rumbelow speculated that, and bear in mind he was an ex city PC himself, Watkins was in fact drinking tea with the ex PC security guard at K+T's.

And there's a saying within the service: "A good policeman never gets wet".

[Bridewell]

The Court Near The Square

Jon, what's your opinion of: "the court near the square"? Does this make sense in the context of Watkins's beat?

The following is from the Casebook 'Mitre Square' wiki entry:

"The square became known as Duke's Place by 1676[1]and was also the site of St. James' church. South of this was the Mitre Tavern and Mitre Court (later Mitre Street) and to the north, a narrow passage known as 'Dark Entry' (later Church Passage). The earliest appearence of the name Mitre Square seems to be in 1830[2] . St James's church was demolished in 1874."

The reference to "the court near the square" could presumably be a reference to Mitre Street? That would fit with the approach of Watkin.