Anderson in NY Times, March 20, 1910

[Simon Wood]

Especially for Norma

Hi Norma,

This is the letter I was attempting to email to you.

While I was checking out a lead on Anderson's activities while "on holiday in Switzerland" you pointed me to a line in Christy Campbell's Fenian Fire, page 309, regarding the Parnell Letter forger Richard Pigott—

"Davitt had indeed run down Pigott—if not literally: the 'rascal' had departed Paris for Dublin on the 4th [October 1888], the day Robert Anderson also left the French capital."

This lip-smacking coincidence spurred me to dig deeper, and in the end I discovered it was not true. Although it was not impossible for the two men to have met in Paris, Pigott must have left the city a few days earlier.

Pigott lived at 11 Sandycove Avenue, Kingstown, Ireland, and on 3rd October 1888 had written the following letter—



And on 4th October from the same address he wrote to Messrs. Lewis & Lewis, solicitors, regarding expenses to cover his appearance at the Parnell Special Commission. Lewis & Lewis replied on 5th October 1888. These last two letters are in the Special Commission transcript.

There were a number of errors in Fenian Fire. They were unimportant in themselves, but make all the difference when trying to nail the scrawny butts of slippery customers like Pigott and Anderson.

Regards,

Simon

[Stephen Thomas]

But hark, what's that sound I hear?

"Just one Cornetto . . ."

'Just one honour killing'

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stephen,

Thank you. Great photograph.

But hark, what's that sound I hear?

"Just one Cornetto . . ."

Regards,

Simon

[Stephen Thomas]

It sounds pretty much like a statement of fact. Eyre Street Hill was the centre of London's Italian immigrant population. They specialised in making ice cream in the most cramped and disgusting of conditions, turned begging into an organized art form and their penchant for barrel-organ music raised questions of public nuisance in parliament. Random violence and stabbings were no stranger to the area, although I must admit to not yet having discovered a shooting.

Hi Simon

Here's Eyre Street Hill back in the days. The street is still there though few of these buildings still exist. The pub on the left is still there however.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Jason cited an excerpt from a 1907[?] letter from Macnaghten to George R. Sims in which he also detailed the names and dates of the C5 murders.

It sounds pretty much like a statement of fact. Eyre Street Hill was the centre of London's Italian immigrant population. They specialised in making ice cream in the most cramped and disgusting of conditions, turned begging into an organized art form and their penchant for barrel-organ music raised questions of public nuisance in parliament. Random violence and stabbings were no stranger to the area, although I must admit to not yet having discovered a shooting.

Regards,

Simon

"I would have to agree with you that's probably just Anderson's elitism peeking out again."

Continuing the noble tradition of this thread in blaming Anderson for things he never said (see the NYT article etc).

The "elitist" quote is by Macnaghten.

I wasnt aware that that particular word had been used to describe him before Rob.

I think all we can argue about is the perception of context anyway, the words themselves dont need to be redefined.

Best regards

[robhouse]

"I would have to agree with you that's probably just Anderson's elitism peeking out again."

Continuing the noble tradition of this thread in blaming Anderson for things he never said (see the NYT article etc).

The "elitist" quote is by Macnaghten.

It was MM's attitude to this large colony of Italians I was asking you to comment on. So many Italian stereotypes in one single paragraph - ice cream vendors, shooters and stabbers. Is this an example of MM's prejudice? Or a sincerely held and justified opinion of his about these Italians?

Thanks for that clarification Jason ,... and I would have to agree with you that's probably just Anderson's elitism peeking out again.

The thing that has held some people from acknowledging this about him is that some feel it might seem to appear as representative of the force itself and their feelings towards the neighborhoods like one the murders happened in. I personally dont believe that is in evidence the way his personal attitudes were at all.

What if Anderson took this position publicly to specifically take some heat and mis-direct some attention? If he did so to protect the secrecy of the Intelligence community with which he is so aligned and the government he worked so "tirelessly" for.....gee....maybe that might be Knighthood material.

My best regards Jason

[jason_c]

Im not sure of what youre asking me to comment on Jason....Clerkenwell obviously jumped out at me in relation to Fenian train station bombings that killed innocent people...could you phrase it slightly less "poetically"?

Mike I have no doubt that you have pegged Anderson correctly. Which in no way casts serious concerns with what I said regarding his overt prejudice in relation to Jewish people. He may well have thought of himself as better than many ethnicity's or nationality's, many of the "proper" society demographic of that era might have felt the same.

Best regards gents

It was MM's attitude to this large colony of Italians I was asking you to comment on. So many Italian stereotypes in one single paragraph - ice cream vendors, shooters and stabbers. Is this an example of MM's prejudice? Or a sincerely held and justified opinion of his about these Italians?

[The Good Michael]

Michael,

I think Anderson was just a creature of his times, and no different than any of the other station-hungry and status conscious men in any office.
Today we would call them all elitist, racist, and possibly sexist, but then... just like everyone else. My point with is is to show that these traits don't necessarily point him or anyone else in the direction of some sort of plot or conspiracy or cover-up that pointing fingers at his prejudices have been doing on this and other threads. His reasons for suspecting a Jew are quite probably just because there were many Jews in the East End and the newer immigrants were not satisfied with the working conditions and some tended toward anarchism, which to Anderson's mind, may have been a worse idea than murder. I think the Jews were the new Irish is all. That would have been reason enough to have them suspect without any plots or conspiracies.

Cheers,

Mike

"Yet another "light" in dark, & not
generally known, metropolitan spots has
flashed across my mind: --
Eyre Street Hill -- Clerkenwell -- where
there is a large colony of Italians who
are mostly ice-cream vendors by day,
&, not infrequently, stabbers & shootists
by night."


Perrymason,

What are your thoughts on the above?

Im not sure of what youre asking me to comment on Jason....Clerkenwell obviously jumped out at me in relation to Fenian train station bombings that killed innocent people...could you phrase it slightly less "poetically"?

Mike I have no doubt that you have pegged Anderson correctly. Which in no way casts serious concerns with what I said regarding his overt prejudice in relation to Jewish people. He may well have thought of himself as better than many ethnicity's or nationality's, many of the "proper" society demographic of that era might have felt the same.

Best regards gents

[jason_c]

I wasnt referring to this thread specifically Chris....as you've Im sure noticed there have been posts that have nothing at all to do with the thread premise directly, but have everything to do with what can be deemed trustworthy from sources such as Sir Robert.

What can be believed, what should be accepted, and why inconsistencies create a red flag are things that all students of the crimes should be focused on...not what we have been told, not some opinions that defy logic, and not obviously flawed perceptions like the Canonical Group was created by using the physical and circumstantial evidence of the cases.

I cannot embrace a "Suspects" list like in the MM with a straight face...nor should anyone here.

I cannot endorse an idea that comments like "low class Jews" and "one of their own kind" as a follow up arent blatantly prejudicial...since they were made without any substantive supporting evidence.

Thats the crux...its not a point here or there....its 121 years of GIGO.

We should be, and are, more capable than that I think.

Best regards

"Yet another "light" in dark, & not
generally known, metropolitan spots has
flashed across my mind: --
Eyre Street Hill -- Clerkenwell -- where
there is a large colony of Italians who
are mostly ice-cream vendors by day,
&, not infrequently, stabbers & shootists
by night."


Perrymason,

What are your thoughts on the above?

[The Good Michael]

I was thinking that if Anderson thought an Irishman was responsible, or an Italian, and American, an Indian... anything, he would have said the same thing about them wanting to protect their own. The British, and especially the educated upper classes thought of themselves as superior to everyone else (this was not just the British domain either). This was the height of British imperialism and society was so stratified that everyone took great pains to point out the inferiority of everyone who the believed was of a lower status level than they were. My point is, there would have been disparagement on any group of people that were suspect. Why were lower class, Polish Jews at the top of the list? Some of it may have had to do with despisement from the established Anglo-Jewry as well as general suspicions based upon the social and complexional make-up of the East End. If the East End had a preponderance of Mexicans, for example, because of sheer volume of people, wouldn't we be talking about Ruizes rather than Kosminskis?

Cheers,

Mike

What "potentially vital information" has been presented on this thread?

I wasnt referring to this thread specifically Chris....as you've Im sure noticed there have been posts that have nothing at all to do with the thread premise directly, but have everything to do with what can be deemed trustworthy from sources such as Sir Robert.

What can be believed, what should be accepted, and why inconsistencies create a red flag are things that all students of the crimes should be focused on...not what we have been told, not some opinions that defy logic, and not obviously flawed perceptions like the Canonical Group was created by using the physical and circumstantial evidence of the cases.

I cannot embrace a "Suspects" list like in the MM with a straight face...nor should anyone here.

I cannot endorse an idea that comments like "low class Jews" and "one of their own kind" as a follow up arent blatantly prejudicial...since they were made without any substantive supporting evidence.

Thats the crux...its not a point here or there....its 121 years of GIGO.

We should be, and are, more capable than that I think.

Best regards

[Scott Nelson]

Its time to stop being impeded making any progress due to nonsensical arguments and whimsical dismissals of potentially vital information.

What "potentially vital information" has been presented on this thread?