Anderson in NY Times, March 20, 1910

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Pirate!

The first point I would like to make concerns your remark about Aaron Kosminski"s sex drive. As I understand it, nothing whatsoever is known about his sex drive. What we do know is that doctors wrote of Aaron"s auditory and visual hallucinations,each being strong indicators of a tendency to schizophrenic psychosis or episodes of hearing voices etc.
Apart from this we are told in his doctor"s reports that his concerns focussed on a "universal instinct" which he believed "guided him in all his affairs" etc.But about his sex drive nothing is written.I know his family were very worried about his masturbatory habits,but that doesnt indicate a strong sex drive,in fact it could simply be a manifestation of some insecurities and anxieties and the way in which he obtained release from them.We hear nothing more about his "self abuse"from his hospital records after he was admitted, but quite a bit is written,albeit in an abbreviated form, about his hallucinations .Now if for example ,it had ever been reported by his family or in his case notes,that he was given to being up all night in brothels,that might indicate he had a strong sex drive but this was not written,nor was there any hint of any interest in the opposite sex.By contrast the impression one gets is that far from engaging with women in the act of sex, he spent most of the time having delusions about messages he was receiving about how to eat and drink.Apart from this ,he was from time to time very obstinate ,refusing,notably, in making a contribution to care for himself presenting at these times as dirty and unkempt or refusing to involve himself in work of any kind.He also refused to speak in English from time to time,using only his mother tongue,German/Yiddish.
So if this was Jack the Ripper,he was quite a gentle cat really!

[jason_c]

Im out of my depth discussing Schizophrenia in any meanigful way.

I would say however that plenty serial killers have been harmless once imprisoned. I am surprised though that no mention of Kosminski's potential danger are recorded in his notes. Unless the police did not mention there suspicions even to medical staff.

I think Malice needs to have been seen to enable even the suggestion on valid grounds......or menace. Dark emotions, fantasies and impulses, as Jeff said, which are not necessarily at the core of a Schizophrenia diagnosis. Was any of that present with AK in the records?

Best regards all.

[Jeff Leahy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,_drawn_and_quartered

Hi Norma trust you and family are all well.

There’s rather a lot of different points you have made here so I will try and reply one at a time:


The mutilations were not that different from those carried out in state executions England during the Tudors and Stuarts don’t forget. In fact someone being "hung drawn and quartered" was a spectacle people went to see for a day out. The "quartering"was very similar to what the ripper did.
No schizophrenia just state executions!

Yes but these were abolished long before the Ripper murders. And while I take your general point that normal people are capable of extreme violence in certain circumstances, these crimes are unique in there savagery. You have to be pretty close and personal to do this to someone with a knife.

While I cant prove it categorically, I think the act of a madman out of normal control best explains what we see at the MJK murder scene.

I totally disagree about the nature of Aaron"s hospital records. The twenty three year old Aaron Kosminski would not have been admitted to any asylum in the uk and referred to in records as being "harmless" and "not a danger to others" if the doctors had had the slightest suspicion he was Jack the Ripper. Not once in all the thirty years of his time in the loony bin did they ever write of Aaron that he was a "danger to others".His records reveal him to have been considered "harmless". Now had he been 38 or 39 when admitted,then I could have accepted some kind of "burn out" theory rendering him "harmless"-----possibly----but in his mid twenties no way!

Firstly we do not know. Aaron’s records are fairly sparse, and mainly cover the later part of is incarceration. My understanding is that he only would have been sent to Broadmore if convicted, which he was not.

Actually what little we do know about Aaron, his age and symptoms, are fairly classic symptoms of what we refer to as Schizophrenia (which some experts now argue is a misleading term). Unlike Peter Sutcliff who was much older than Aaron but also targeted prostitutes.

My expert was fairly careful to caveat his opinions on Aaron. He would expect other factors in psychotic attacks, drink, drugs, grass etc and would have no way of knowing what ,if anything, Aaron had been exposed too. Plus schizophrenics today are treated with drugs, so comparisons are difficult.

However late teens to 22 is classic starting time of the illness. My expert regularly admits people from Universities. The majority of these people are completely harmless and largely a danger to themselves. It is a tragic misconception that they do not commit suicide, they do. He clearly had no problem with Aaron behaving as he did once removed from the environment, if he were Jack. Again, the majority of Schizophrenic’s are completely harmless only under certain conditions can they become dangerous. Psychotic episode come in waves between 12 and 16 weeks. Decent, and functioning between attacks can vary enormously between patients. Some patients can be dangerous yes, but this is rare.

My experts experience is that Schizophrenics have low sex drives. Aaron appears to have had the opposite, which suggests high testosterone levels.

http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab006197.html

http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/002895.html

However if the paranoid schizophrenic mutilating serial killer Robert Napper,currently serving life in Broadmoor is still considered a huge danger after 16 years or more inside, as are a number of other similar killers serving life there, then Aaron ,had he been JtR, would doubtless have been
sent to Broadmoor not Colney Hatch and his notes would have stated that he was considered dangerous to others.

Again I can only add that the examples you have given are very rare. The majority of Schizophrenics are completely harmless. Peter Sutcliffe has been a model prisoner. For every dangerous Schizophrenic you quote there are many who are not. Each case must be judged on its individual merits.

My expert has not said that Aaron was Jack the Ripper, simply that given what is know, that he was almost certainly suffering from schizophrenia. And thus its possible that he committed the crimes under certain circumstance and was completely harmless once placed in an asylum. Its thus a possibility that can be balanced with what else is known..

That’s a long way from proving anything. Its another factor to be considered against the work done by Rob and his fellow researchers..

Anyway looks like I’m being dragged out shopping…wonderful

Catch you later

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Jeff,
The mutilations were not that different from those carried out in state executions England during the Tudors and Stuarts dont forget.In fact someone being "hung drawn and quartered" was a spectacle people went to see for a day out.The "quartering"was very similar to what the ripper did.
No schizophrenia just state executions!

I totally disagree about the nature of Aaron"s hospital records.The twenty three year old Aaron Kosminski would not have been admitted to any asylum in the uk and referred to in records as being "harmless" and "not a danger to others" if the doctors had had the slightest suspicion he was Jack the Ripper.Not once in all the thirty years of his time in the loony bin did they ever write of Aaron that he was a "danger to others".His records reveal him to have been considered "harmless".
Now had he been 38 or 39 when admitted,then I could have accepted some kind of "burn out" theory rendering him "harmless"-----possibly----but in his mid twenties no way!

However if the paranoid schizophrenic mutilating serial killer Robert Napper,currently serving life in Broadmoor is still considered a huge danger after 16 years or more inside, as are a number of other similar killers serving life there, then Aaron ,had he been JtR, would doubtless have been
sent to Broadmoor not Colney Hatch and his notes would have stated that he was considered dangerous to others.

[lynn cates]

seeking knowledge

Hello Pirate. Quite interesting. I wish we knew more.

Which is the best Kosminski thread?

The best.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Pirate. Our messages crossed.

No, I have little expertise in the field--not since taking a first in psych MANY years ago. I did, however, have much contact with individuals whose symptoms coincided with the schizophrenia diagnosis and they seemed harmless enough.

Of course, the paranoid variety is a VERY different story--at least, as it is understood.

The best.
LC

No , my understanding is that the majority of schizophrenics are completely harmless. Indeed I'm aware that some people claiming to suffer the condition post on these boards and are very normal...

Indeed they probably find my dyslexia amusing.

Jeff x

[Jeff Leahy]

Wow that is way off topic!

I can however recommend this years Conference DVD which heads into this territory price only £15 via Adam Wood, excuse the pitch but it is very worth while.

Personally I find McKenzie interesting but Coles a no show.

But that’s all just wild speculation. Lets ague the toss on Stride which clearly the big guns have some doubt about?

Pirate

[lynn cates]

varieties

Hello Pirate. Our messages crossed.

No, I have little expertise in the field--not since taking a first in psych MANY years ago. I did, however, have much contact with individuals whose symptoms coincided with the schizophrenia diagnosis and they seemed harmless enough.

Of course, the paranoid variety is a VERY different story--at least, as it is understood.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

cyclic illness

Hello Pirate. Would I be correct to assume that MacKenzie and Coles should be included on the list of victims and perhaps that Aaron had a respite sometime after Kelly (down-cycle if you will) followed by a relapse or two?

(Perhaps I am heading off topic?)

The best.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Pirate.

"You can call something anything you wish, it’s the practical, applied, use of the term that I’m interested in."

PRECISELY!

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I'm not putting myself up as an expert. I have just spoken to people who work daily with Schizophrenia. I'm aware that this is something that you have also worked in or a feild you have worked in.

I thus welcome any experience or veiws you hold. I'm not trying to be an expert in a feild where so little is known.

Any experience or veiws on Schizophrenia I'm sure we would all welcome.

Trusting you are having an excellent Xmas. Best wishes

Pirate Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Norma

And thank you for elaborating:

Jeff,Thanksfor the xmas greeting and the same to you

Let me just say you have completely missed the point I made.You said the Ripper was clearly very ill. I objected because I said we dont know that-all we know is that he had "abnormal urges" which he acted upon.Then I said this does not make him "very ill" such as is often the case if schizophrenia causes such "abnormal urges".In other words,not every one with "abnormal urges" who "acts out" is suffering from schizophrenia.

Ok: Saying the Ripper was very ill is speculation on my part. However I think it a reasonable assumption given the mutilations carried out on the victims, also given Swanson and Anderson’s assessments.

I have taken Aaron’s medical records via modern experts and they have told me that schizophrenia (as is currently used) is the most probable explanation of Aaron’s condition. I have also given a brief out-line of those, speculated, behaviors. This includes: self-delusion, paranoia and possible extreme violence (especially if mixed with drugs or alcohol). However once separate they would also expect the patient to calm, be passive, and eventually completely harmless. I’m certain you are a where of this.

Saying someone suffering from these symptoms is ‘ILL’ is simply a no brainier. Obviously they are ‘Ill’ and not in control of their choices.

I then went on to say that during the mass killings and gassings of Jewish people in WW2 where we know acts of great inhumanity and cruelty took place, many of the people who carried out these atrocities did so ,not because they were mad or suffering from schizophrenia ,but because they had let themselves be brainwashed by Hitler into believing Jewish people were not real people and could therefore be disposed of.

I’m not certain what you are getting at? Clearly people killing people through genocide is a totally different scenario? They are fully aware, logically, of what is happening to them and what they are doing…Aaron was NOT.


In my view the ripper could have simply perceived the women he murdered as "non-people" or "abstractions" as happened in Germany during WW2 with regards to people belonging to the Jewish race.Like the people who ran the concentration camps, the ripper did not need to have been suffering from schizophrenia or paranoid schizophrenia or a psychotic illness.He,like them, only needed to have persuaded himself that the people he chose to murder were expendable.

I don’t know perhaps we should get together and do an LSD tab?

No, your right we’re getting to old for such things…

But I’m happy to meet and discuss Aaron’s mental condition in more detail. Clearly there is no B/W solution to Schizophrenia or predictable behavior patterns from people suffering this illness.

Pirate

PS yes, a very merry Xmas hope to see you in the new year.

[lynn cates]

indeed

Hello Pirate.

"You can call something anything you wish, it’s the practical, applied, use of the term that I’m interested in."

PRECISELY!

The best.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Nothing is mentioned either way. And that would appear consistant with what is know about both Anderson and Swanson.

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma

Merry Xmas.

Look this is bollocks. The death of millions of jews has nothing what so ever to do with Schizophrenia, NOTHING.

Aron was mentally ill. Thats very simple. What ever his race , creed or colour, he would have reacted in the same way, given his illness.

The problem is that we still do not fully understand that illness. You are again trying to rationalize the irrational.

Yours Pirate / Jeff x

PS I have been over the case notes in detail with my brother and he has little problem giving a deignosis of schitzophrenia.

Jeff,Thanksfor the xmas greeting and the same to you

Let me just say you have completely missed the point I made.You said the Ripper was clearly very ill. I objected because I said we dont know that-all we know is that he had "abnormal urges" which he acted upon.Then I said this does not make him "very ill" such as is often the case if schizophrenia causes such "abnormal urges".In other words,not every one with "abnormal urges" who "acts out" is suffering from schizophrenia.


I then went on to say that during the mass killings and gassings of Jewish people in WW2 where we know acts of great inhumanity and cruelty took place, many of the people who carried out these atrocities did so ,not because they were mad or suffering from schizophrenia ,but because they had let themselves be brainwashed by Hitler into believing Jewish people were not real people and could therefore be disposed of.


In my view the ripper could have simply perceived the women he murdered as "non-people" or "abstractions" as happened in Germany during WW2 with regards to people belonging to the Jewish race.Like the people who ran the concentration camps, the ripper did not need to have been suffering from schizophrenia or paranoid schizophrenia or a psychotic illness.He,like them, only needed to have persuaded himself that the people he chose to murder were expendable.